Fall of Man

[BOwen]

Bring it on.. (Hey if no one else is going to do anything.. )

So, first was have the obvious stuff in Genesis so may as well start there. I noticed that this particular topic has the most votes so I think we'd be amiss if we didn't at least talk about it.

But first I'd like to ask what people want to get out of this topic? I for one would like to be surprised.

Also, how broad of a topic do people want to go? Just the 'fall' itself or do folks want to go up to the flood or.. what? (Some really cool stuff there btw)

[Lazarus]

Hm...

why was that tree even there? why was a serpent allowed in the garden? Why, if man was perfect, did both of the original ones sin?
Oh yeah.

And why didn't God just get rid of Adam and Eve and start over like he, um, did a short while later?

so what I'd like to get out of this topic is just a few answers, Bowen.

[ccgr]

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Notice how it says "and gave unto her husband WITH her"

now a lot of people blame Eve. Adam was right there, he didn't say a word. Was he curious to see what would happen?

[BOwen]

Hm...

why was that tree even there? why was a serpent allowed in the garden? Why, if man was perfect, did both of the original ones sin?
Oh yeah.

And why didn't God just get rid of Adam and Eve and start over like he, um, did a short while later?

so what I'd like to get out of this topic is just a few answers, Bowen.

There are some here who will obviously debate this but it comes down to free will. Love can't force itself on people. The choice to sin or not needed to exist. I personally don't think the tree itself was all that special. It could have been any tree. What was important was the command which gave them a choice whether or not to obey.

Now if Christ paid the price for all. Present, future, and past. There would be no need to wipe out man entirely and start over. We're not told that Adam and Eve became unredeemable.

The flood is another set of circumstances that would also be debated if we got into that, but it's important to note that obviously man wasn't wiped out entirely.

now a lot of people blame Eve. Adam was right there, he didn't say a word. Was he curious to see what would happen?

I'm not sure we can say that Adam didn't say anything. However, he clearly didn't say anything significant enough to make to write down.

[Chozon1]

Because we still haven't learned enough about free will.

I'm probably staying out of this one. I just dropped in to say this:

Eve may have eaten first, but that didn't mean Adam had to.

[Kendrik]

Eve may have eaten first, but that didn't mean Adam had to.

Later in chapter 3, during the curse, we can reason that Eve was deceived, but Adam chose to follow Eve instead of doing what he knew was right.

aka Adam sucks at least as much as Eve in that... but... I wouldn't have done any better.

[BOwen]

Because we still haven't learned enough about free will.

Not even going there. But it's the only thing that makes any logical sense (to me and my sense of logic)

Later in chapter 3, during the curse, we can reason that Eve was deceived, but Adam chose to follow Eve instead of doing what he knew was right.

I've heard it speculated that Adam in this sense is an early archtype (if that's the right word I'm looking for) of Christ in that he loved Eve so much that he chose to join her in sin like Christ became a man. Of course the comparison pretty much ends there as Jesus never sinned. The Bible never tells us that Adam was decieved so I think it's safe to assume that he wasn't.

[Kendrik]

I've heard it speculated that Adam in this sense is an early archtype (if that's the right word I'm looking for) of Christ in that he loved Eve so much that he chose to join her in sin like Christ became a man. Of course the comparison pretty much ends there as Jesus never sinned. The Bible never tells us that Adam was decieved so I think it's safe to assume that he wasn't.

"Archetype," but yeah... I've heard that Adam is an archetype for mankind... instead of a literal person. I think "prototype" fits what you're saying better, though.

Either way... I'm not on board with that speculation... because Christ didn't have anything sinful about him. He did not choose man over God. He chose to yield some of his Divine Attributes in order to redeem man, but... I really don't see that as a reason to compare Adam's fall to Christ's incarnation.

And that last part... I'm amazed... we agree on something theological.

[BOwen]

ha!

Well the comparison is drawn in the relationship of Eve being Adam's wife and Christ being the bridegroom of the church. The comparison is far from perfect if you consider the personal qualities of Adam vs Jesus. Obviously Jesus never became imperfect. Adam shared responsibility for man's sinful nature where as Jesus paid the price for that.

I think it's more of a point of interest than anything else. Adam joined his wife, Christ came to Earth for His "bride" much beyond that I'm not sure I want to read too much into it. It's just interesting to a point.

There are far more significant matters around this time such as early prophecies of Christ, the meaning of names in the first 10 (?) generations of man (which is really cool I might add) if people want to go that far.

The situation around the flood is particularly interesting. Of course that would be another uh.. "hot" topic as it were. I'm not sure if we want to go that far down the line or not.

As I have somewhat of an interest in game design around Biblical stuff I find angelic/spiritual tools to be a fascinating subject like the sword God places to guard the tree of life.. makes me wonder what else they've got that we don't know about.

Gen 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [fn] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

So not only did he put cherubim there (I've always thought of them as being much tougher than your averate angel) but a flaming sword that moves on its own. Man I'd would like to see one of those.

It's curious though as to why cherubim AND a sword. It seems pretty overkill if God is just guarding the tree from man. And it makes you wonder also that the tree of life was intended for man since Adam and Eve would have had access to it before the fall.

[wferwfer]

Hm...

why was that tree even there? why was a serpent allowed in the garden? Why, if man was perfect, did both of the original ones sin?

There are some here who will obviously debate this but it comes down to free will. Love can't force itself on people. The choice to sin or not needed to exist. I personally don't think the tree itself was all that special. It could have been any tree. What was important was the command which gave them a choice whether or not to obey.

Is God's power limited? Because if God really is above everything else, the ultimate force in existence, what are concepts like love or free will but things He created? How could God be bound by them when making the world? Could He have not made things differently? Why set up a little experiment in Eden and see how things turn out when you can make things proper(and didn't He already know the results?)? Is this really the best of all possible worlds?

[Chozon1]

For srs answer (to the best of my ability):

God's power is unlimited, but he set rules. If He broke them, he would show Himself unjust. Since the ultimate authority (ever) is Him, He shows His justice and Righteousness by abiding by His rules. And since He is the only way to see what perfect is, He is perfectly just, and His rules cannot be wrong.

God did not create love, He is love. God created tree's, birds, fish, but love was never created because God was never created. Free will was something He gave us. He told us what was right, and that we had to abide by His will if we wanted to live. But He gave us the chance to prove otherwise, the choice to do what we wanted. He wanted us to follow Him, not because we were forced by His ultimate power, but because we loved Him. It's not love if it's forced. If God used His authority for a totalitarian existence, who could NOT love Him? Who would be brave enough to admit to it? It'd be forcing someone to say "I love you" at gunpoint.

By giving us a choice, God shows us how much He loves us. He is unwilling to force us to follow Him, but instead, wants us to choose to follow Him.

Which is why the fall of man in the garden was no "experiment". God, as the author of history, knew what would happen before He created us. He showed us clearly that turning from Him (doing what was wrong) only lead to death. So then, the reason this planet is broke isn't because of God's apathy, or laziness, but because He gave us the choice to make or break this world.

One of the greatest wonders in history is the fact that an ultimate God, glory of all, unchangeable, never created creator, would allow His creations to wreck His work by their own choices. He wouldn't force them to love or obey Him.

You may think that His way or death is petty or vindictive, but it's not. It's just the way it is. It is, to make it as clear as I can, as if one day, a single person decided to change the traffic laws and drove on the wrong side of the road, went at red lights and stopped at green. He will die because he's doing the wrong thing in accordance to how things are. This is just an illustration, so please don't read to deeply into it.

He let us choose how were wanted to go. We could have followed Him out of love, but we chose to be the guy who drove on the wrong side of the road. At the start, there was only one rule. Just one thing humanity needed to follow in order to stay in God's will (the right way). That was to not eat from the tree. We broke that, and disobeyed God, showing Him we'd rather do our own thing than trust and love Him.

Which is where God shows His love again: He was not, in any way, shape, form, or fashion willing to let us die in our own failure. He loved us that much, so He set about to make a nation of holy people who would spread His law (again, God's rules cannot be fallible, because He is infallible) of righteousness to all peoples. This law detailed what was right, what was wrong, and what would make right the first evil choice we made.

But...yeah. We couldn't keep that law either. It was broken, distorted, and used by us to bring death instead of life.

So God showed clearly His love for us again: He Himself made the payment for our sins. In legal terms, this was the murder victims family reaching out to the murderer and telling Him they forgave him, and would not press charges.

In short, this is not the best possible of worlds. Humans made it this way, and God let us because:

1) God wanted us to follow Him out of love, not force. You can't love a ruthless dictator who even controls your thoughts, actions, and emotions. A race of robots is not what God wanted. God made a perfect world, untainted, with perfect life, and love, and creatures. We spoiled it by disobeying Him and saying "Yeah God, we want to be our own Gods, and make our own rules".

2) Throughout the entirety of history, God has reached out to us again and again, showing through actions, not just words, how desperately and unendingly He loves us. The fall showed us that we fail, and clearly showed His love for us...Words cannot describe that love.

3) He did make things right. Through Jesus' blood, the blood of His own Son, He forgave us of all our sins and mess-ups.

I hope that answered your questions...

[Keero]

About a year and a half late, wferwfer. :p

[wferwfer]

God's power is unlimited, but he set rules. If He broke them, he would show Himself unjust. Since the ultimate authority (ever) is Him, He shows His justice and Righteousness by abiding by His rules. And since He is the only way to see what perfect is, He is perfectly just, and His rules cannot be wrong.

I just feel that when you apply infinity to any concept, it creates all kind of logical problems. If got is infinity powerful, he could break his rules and make that action just. And what is justice but another of his creations that is dependent upon his will? An all powerful being could make a world where breaking the rules is just, or where stealing is righteous. Do you see what I'm getting at? Can we as humans ever really understand or apply the concept of infinity to a question? Concepts have limits, which is what we use to define them, love and justice are examples of concepts we have. But infinity has no limits. How can you apply something like justice, which is limited, to that? It's like the famous questions of whether God could create a stone so heavy he could no lift it. Infinity is full of paradox. I don't know where religious people get the answers to their religious questions from when the concept of God they created is so impossible to grasp.

I'm still going to respond to more of your post, but just keep in mind my feelings here apply to much of the rest of what you wrote, even if I won't include that in my posts.

God did not create love, He is love. God created tree's, birds, fish, but love was never created because God was never created. Free will was something He gave us. He told us what was right, and that we had to abide by His will if we wanted to live. But He gave us the chance to prove otherwise, the choice to do what we wanted. He wanted us to follow Him, not because we were forced by His ultimate power, but because we loved Him. It's not love if it's forced. If God used His authority for a totalitarian existence, who could NOT love Him? Who would be brave enough to admit to it? It'd be forcing someone to say "I love you" at gunpoint. By giving us a choice, God shows us how much He loves us. He is unwilling to force us to follow Him, but instead, wants us to choose to follow Him.

When you talk about giving us a chance, are you still refering to Adam and Eve? Because if they really did exist, and I descended from them, I'm not responsible for the actions of my forefathers. God also did not tell us what was right, he told select people throughout history what was right and how things are and then counted on that message left behind to find it's way to the majority who did not recieve it directly. He counted on people be convinced by other people of something they had not expereinced firshand.

And sending nonbelievers to hell for not choosing to follow Him, or for happening to not believe for whatever reason, is holding a gun to our heads. It's not a free choice if there's direct consequences. That's like saying you have freedom of speech, but if you choose to promote political ideas I don't approve of as your President I'm going to arrest you. If it was really a free choice people would be able to live following whatever they want and that wouldn't affect them in the afterlife. And if God really love us so much, why would he allow some to go astray and face eternal torment? This freedom isn't loving, it's cruel. What just God would leave the fate of an eternal soul up to the chance, confusion, imperfection, and limited, unequal experience of this world!?

Which is why the fall of man in the garden was no "experiment". God, as the author of history, knew what would happen before He created us. He showed us clearly that turning from Him (doing what was wrong) only lead to death. So then, the reason this planet is broke isn't because of God's apathy, or laziness, but because He gave us the choice to make or break this world.

And what is the point of this story he authors? As God, God could certainly have written a different one. Instead He felt like throwing us down here and playing a game to see who wins and who losses.

One of the greatest wonders in history is the fact that an ultimate God, glory of all, unchangeable, never created creator, would allow His creations to wreck His work by their own choices. He wouldn't force them to love or obey Him.

In light of wars and suffering, I don't find that to be a good thing. There must be another way.

You may think that His way or death is petty or vindictive, but it's not. It's just the way it is.

It's not "just the way it is," it's how God mad it. If he really is onmipotent, that is. How you phrase that concept is important, because you make it seem like it's out if God's hands. He wanted it this way.

It is, to make it as clear as I can, as if one day, a single person decided to change the traffic laws and drove on the wrong side of the road, went at red lights and stopped at green. He will die because he's doing the wrong thing in accordance to how things are. This is just an illustration, so please don't read to deeply into it.

I will read into this analogy, because it's too simplistic. According to Christianity, the universe is supposed to be designed, not "just how it is." As the designer, God is responsible for how his designs look. I can't help but read into such statements.

He let us choose how were wanted to go. We could have followed Him out of love, but we chose to be the guy who drove on the wrong side of the road. At the start, there was only one rule. Just one thing humanity needed to follow in order to stay in God's will (the right way). That was to not eat from the tree. We broke that, and disobeyed God, showing Him we'd rather do our own thing than trust and love Him.

*I* didn't choose to be the guy who drove on the wrong side of the road. But apparently I'm blamed for it anyway.

Which is where God shows His love again: He was not, in any way, shape, form, or fashion willing to let us die in our own failure. He loved us that much, so He set about to make a nation of holy people who would spread His law (again, God's rules cannot be fallible, because He is infallible) of righteousness to all peoples. This law detailed what was right, what was wrong, and what would make right the first evil choice we made.

He let plenty of people die in their failure throughout the bible. And I don't think everything in the bible is right, but apparently it all must be followed blindly.

But...yeah. We couldn't keep that law either. It was broken, distorted, and used by us to bring death instead of life.

So God showed clearly His love for us again: He Himself made the payment for our sins. In legal terms, this was the murder victims family reaching out to the murderer and telling Him they forgave him, and would not press charges.

How does killing an innocent person instead of the guilty one makes things right? What kind of justice is this? In legal terms it was the victims family sacrificing themselves for the murderers. That's dumb.

In short, this is not the best possible of worlds. Humans made it this way, and God let us because:

We didn't make the world, God did, he made everything imperfect. He made the world, the people who live in it, and then blames the things he made for being as he made them!? I refuse to apologize for my imperfection.

[Chozon1]

Firstly, you're semi right in much of what you've said. I really is impossible to grasp God because He's infinite. In the words of Ohno, "He's not God if He fits in your head". Paul said something much to the same effect "We see as through a glass darkly". Paraphrase. I didn't create the concept of God in my mind because creating a concept of ultimate infinity is impossible. It's hard to grasp because humans are limited in their "sight" of God. That, in part, is why Jesus came. Jesus was the full expression of God's nature. The infinite in a finite body. It's hard to grasp, not because it's impossible, but because we're dealing with something no human mind can comprehend.

And true, God is the author of history, so He is fully in control of what is happening. But I covered that. As incomprehensible as it is to us (not you, not humanity, but us. Both of us right now) He wants us to follow out of love and trust, not because He forces it. It's why He gave us the ability to break the planet.

Could God have made it differently? Yes. Absolutely. Why didn't He? I don't really know. I am not God. God is the ultimate authority, ever. He's the sovereign King of all creation. And since He's an infinite King (having all power and authority) questioning Him doesn't make sense because we can't see from His eyes. A science student would question a professor because he doesn't understand what the professor is doing. Which is OK in this case, because God cannot be wrong.

I was referring to both Adam and Eve, and also us. There is a 100% chance that you've done something wrong in your life. Me too, it's not an exclusive "you're a non christian" thing. Adam and Eve fell and tainted the human race, but when you or I lie, cheat, steal, or whatever, we break God's law ourselves and nullify any "It's wrong to blame me for what they did" questions. Ever told a lie? I have. So for me, it doesn't matter whether Adam disobeyed God, because I did.

God did not leave it up to people. He Himself told an entire nation what was right, what was wrong, and how to follow Him. The chose to do wrong, make it an exclusive club, and not tell others. I'm not certain if you've read the Bible or not, but you'll see that even then, God didn't leave it up to just that one nation. He sent people to other nations to share the truth with them. He equipped those people with miracles, so that those nations could experience it first hand. Jesus came healing people, changing water into wine, and controlling the elements. He did let others outside of that nation experience it first hand. God didn't wind us up and point us towards a cliff.

It's not like free speech with a dominating president. It's more like choosing to use crystal meth/cut yourself, or not. Something obviously harmful and wrong, vs something that's just a different point of view. It's a free choice of choosing the right way or the wrong way, not choose whatever way you want. It's a fairly simple choice if you think about it. Right way=life. Wrong way=death. God created us and is the infinite King. It's His right to choose what is right and wrong.

The kind of God that would go ludicrously out of His way and bend over backwards to make sure everyone had the chance to come to Him is the kind of God that would let us choose life or choose death. Nothing is left to chance because, if God is the controller and author of history, chance cannot exist. Why do people go to hell? I'm not God, and so not a judge. But my best guess? Because we do wrong, and it's the consequences of our actions. If I choose to drink lighter fluid and die, it's no ones fault but my own. It isn't the manufacturers fault, it isn't Wal-Mart's. I'm the one that picked up the bottle and slurped it down. Adam and Eve tainted this planet like I said earlier, but that's immaterial in the end because we ourselves break God's law in our own lives. Everyone has, there are no sinless people. And God gave us a conscience, so that even if His messengers failed, people would still know what was wrong.

My take as to what the point of existence it? What is the point of any story (The good ones, I mean. Not the meaningless entertainment)? To teach us. Not God, but us. God wanted us to know how much He loved us, and words cannot describe that. So He set about showing us. "A picture is worth a thousand words, but an action is worth them all".

And God is in absolute control, we aren't just rats inside of a maze some mad scientist put together to watch us run. There's a point.

In light of your question about there being another way, there was. God created us as perfect, in a perfect world, with no sickness, death, war, or disease. We broke that. Rather, Adam and Eve did. And we're paying for their mistake. It's not an overdue payment on our fathers sins, it's us having to deal with a gigantic radioactive spill our fathers caused. Also, there is another way, after the other way. God doesn't cause us to war with each other, that's our choice. If we asked God to send fire from heaven on each person who decided to start a war, we would have no choice but to life in terror, wondering if our neighbor would report each falsehood or sommat to God, and get us zapped. He loves the murderers just as much as He loves the saints.

And you're right again, I did phrase that wrong. God made it this way, He wanted it to be this way. Have you heard of the pot maker and the clay? God is the pot maker, and we are the clay. From our limited (spinning like crazy) perspective, it seems as though God is messing up. But that's because of our limited perspective as a lump of clay.

the road analogy was just that. I figured you would see that the way we drive was designed in a set way. Also, you (not just you, remember that. It's important.) are the guy who drives on the wrong side of the road. Hatred, lust and lies pour from the human heart, making Adam's choice immaterial.

How does killing an innocent person instead of the guilty one makes things right? What kind of justice is this? In legal terms it was the victims family sacrificing themselves for the murderers. That's dumb.

I quoted that because it's absolutely brilliant. God's justice (the only justice) requires that some form of reimbursement be paid in order to be forgiven. God knew that no human would ever be able to pay that price, so He paid it Himself. Why? Out of love. Only love.

God made the perfect world, and gave it to us as a gift. We broke it (both Adam and Eve, and us every time we sin) and made it the way it is today. So, though God actually created it, we made the world the way it is. It's also clear from that that we cannot make our own world. This planet is rife with evil. You said so earlier. But we can't have it both ways. You can have a God who is a dictator, throwing lightning bolts at whoever disagrees with Him, or you can have a God that made us perfect, but much like parents and children, tried to raise us right, but we rebelled and did what we wanted, breaking the great house He gave us.

[wferwfer]

Please excuse my walls of text bro....

Firstly, you're semi right in much of what you've said. I really is impossible to grasp God because He's infinite. In the words of Ohno, "He's not God if He fits in your head". Paul said something much to the same effect "We see as through a glass darkly". Paraphrase. I didn't create the concept of God in my mind because creating a concept of ultimate infinity is impossible. It's hard to grasp because humans are limited in their "sight" of God. That, in part, is why Jesus came. Jesus was the full expression of God's nature. The infinite in a finite body. It's hard to grasp, not because it's impossible, but because we're dealing with something no human mind can comprehend.

The human mind cannot comprehend it, but it's not impossible to comprehend? It might not be impossible in general, but we both seem to be agreeing that it's impossible for us specifically as humans, and that's the important detail I'm trying to get at.

Could God have made it differently? Yes. Absolutely. Why didn't He? I don't really know. I am not God. God is the ultimate authority, ever. He's the sovereign King of all creation. And since He's an infinite King (having all power and authority) questioning Him doesn't make sense because we can't see from His eyes. A science student would question a professor because he doesn't understand what the professor is doing. Which is OK in this case, because God cannot be wrong.

If questioning God doesn't make sense, you're saying that it's pointless, not OK. I think blindly accepting/following something is intellectually weak. You may not know the answer to a question, but that doesn't make the problems a question raises any less important. I don't think ignoring those questions because God can't be wrong and going along with aspect X of a religion even though you may feel it doesn't make sense or is wrong makes much sense.

But maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here, because since we can't fully grasp God, the nature of God and what he says/wants is uncertain as well, so it's not a simply yes or no issue of accepting the ultimate authority of the universe and what that entails or not; hence the great quantity of religions and religious denominations in the world.

I was referring to both Adam and Eve, and also us. There is a 100% chance that you've done something wrong in your life. Me too, it's not an exclusive "you're a non christian" thing. Adam and Eve fell and tainted the human race, but when you or I lie, cheat, steal, or whatever, we break God's law ourselves and nullify any "It's wrong to blame me for what they did" questions. Ever told a lie? I have. So for me, it doesn't matter whether Adam disobeyed God, because I did.

The kind of God that would go ludicrously out of His way and bend over backwards to make sure everyone had the chance to come to Him is the kind of God that would let us choose life or choose death. Nothing is left to chance because, if God is the controller and author of history, chance cannot exist. Why do people go to hell? I'm not God, and so not a judge. But my best guess? Because we do wrong, and it's the consequences of our actions. If I choose to drink lighter fluid and die, it's no ones fault but my own. It isn't the manufacturers fault, it isn't Wal-Mart's. I'm the one that picked up the bottle and slurped it down. Adam and Eve tainted this planet like I said earlier, but that's immaterial in the end because we ourselves break God's law in our own lives. Everyone has, there are no sinless people. And God gave us a conscience, so that even if His messengers failed, people would still know what was wrong.

I have done things that are wrong, but I still am not responsible for tainting the human race, and I could argue that the reason I've ever done something wrong in the first place is because I've been tainted originally by Adam and Eve. That's why I say I won't apologize for my imperfection. It's not an imperfect things fault that it's imperfect, that's like blaming a square for having six sides and saying that to be good it must conform to the dimensions of a circle. God painted us this way, and then blames us for being the wrong color. That's madness. The standard we're held to should not be perfection, because we're imperfect.

I've talked about this to Arctic, and he said there indeed is no way for us imperfect humans to win, which is why God gave us Jesus to provide a way to salvation. A forgiveness of that imperfection in exchange for following Him. That sounds nice, but using Jesus as a lopehole around the problem of imperfection, and the perfection we'd be expected to achieve, isn't a perfect solution. Because while that gateway to heaven is there despite our shortcomings, whether or not we get to that gateway in the first place is dependent on our imperfect selves (including our shortcomings) and circumstance. The solution that is Jesus doesn't do anything but move the exact same problem eslewhere, and declare it solved.

And really, why would God create something that compensates the problem he created instead of just righting the original issue? Was this really his plan, to create some imperfect people in an imperfect world and then tell them they gotta do X or face fire?

"The kind of God that would go ludicrously out of His way and bend over backwards to make sure everyone had the chance to come to Him is the kind of God that would let us choose life or choose death. Nothing is left to chance because, if God is the controller and author of history, chance cannot exist." I find this statement really ironic, because you say that he shouldn't make sure everyone has the chance, but then say that nothing is left to chance. It's even more ironic for Christians in general, because they frequently say that it's all up to you, you are in complete control 100% of your choice to choose X or Y, life or death, and then face the consequences you know were coming, but then say that it's not up to God to make sure you understand and have a clear choice. We're not perfect, and therefore no person has a complete grasp and awareness of some kind of ultimate dilemma, certainly non christians don't if they don't even believe the Christian God EXISTS. I find the whole Christian attitude towards freewill obnoxious for this reason, because it ignores the reality of how uncertain, doubtful, flawed, limited, and short human experience is. Life isn't black and white, it isn't simple, we don't all experience it the same, we aren't all born equal, and free will certainly isn't absolute, because forces in the universe influence to some extent, if not completely deterministically, shape our very thought, minds, actions, and who we are, whether because of our brain chemistry or culture etc.

There are no sinless people, but if that's the case, then why should some sinners get an eternal award, which is essentially an infinite award, and others get an eternal, infinite punishment? Why is an absolute judgement being passed on something that occured for a limited time in imperfect cirvumstances? It's not proportional. You may not know why people go to hell, you may not be the judge, but that's a poor excuse to ignore an aspect of your God that has absolute ramifications for your neighbors, youself, and the morality of God. No one should have to go to hell, that's sick. Only in a world where we had absolute understanding, freewill, and were perfect would an absolute judgement be appropriate. Or maybe that wouldn't even work, because what am I? What defines me, what made me what I am? What are we but the sum of physical interactions in the universe, our biology, chemistry, and the world acting upon the computer that is our brain and consciousness? Does free will even exist at all, because I didn't make that computer and hardware I run on and I didn't make the physical world that molds that computer and hardware. Withouth those things I'd be nothing.

God did not leave it up to people. He Himself told an entire nation what was right, what was wrong, and how to follow Him. The chose to do wrong, make it an exclusive club, and not tell others. I'm not certain if you've read the Bible or not, but you'll see that even then, God didn't leave it up to just that one nation. He sent people to other nations to share the truth with them. He equipped those people with miracles, so that those nations could experience it first hand. Jesus came healing people, changing water into wine, and controlling the elements. He did let others outside of that nation experience it first hand. God didn't wind us up and point us towards a cliff.

yeah a whole nation, as in the founder of one small people out of several who lived in Palestine. Why was the left of the world left our for thousands of years? I don't know if you've read a history book, because I don't think the Romans or Chinese were very familiar with Jehovah. Why do Gods, in every religion, always only reveal themselves and the truth to a handful of people throughout history, and then leave those people to convince everyone else? Why have a middle man and leave the truth up to the happenstance of whether I believe prophet X, or the book prophet X left behind instead of just coming to me directly when I'm in the cradle to dispell all the confusion? God wound us us, let us run around for ten of thousands of years, and then told a few people what was up, hoping they would be able to convince others in the storm of confusion that is human life and experience.

And for the record, as it turned out a majority of the world has never been convinced of any religion exactly because diety X leaving the truth to this one dude Xthousand years ago is going to leave a lot of room for doubt. Doubt that may lead me to become an atheist, or thing that perhaps the dude from that other religion who left behind a book thousands of years ago was actually right. That's an epic communication fail in my book.

It's not like free speech with a dominating president. It's more like choosing to use crystal meth/cut yourself, or not. Something obviously harmful and wrong, vs something that's just a different point of view. It's a free choice of choosing the right way or the wrong way, not choose whatever way you want. It's a fairly simple choice if you think about it. Right way=life. Wrong way=death. God created us and is the infinite King. It's His right to choose what is right and wrong.

Personally, I believe that for something to be considered wrong it has to cause something negative, cause harm. If what God says is moral just because he’s God, then His law is arbitrary. He’s an absolute monarch who sets the rules according to His whims. Even if I accept that what God says is moral, “just because He’s God”. even though I find parts of it immoral, it’s still contradictory to tell someone you’re giving them a freedom and then to punish them brutally for exercising that freedom in a way you doesn’t approve of. That’s not freedom of choice. If I hold a gun to your head and say do X, or I’m going to kill you, few people would call the choice you subsequently make a free one; a choice that expressed what you really feel and not your desire to avoid harm.

And actually I don’t think either of our analogies fit’s the issue here, because religion isn’t a matter of choice, it’s a matter of belief. That’s a point so many religious people seem to miss when criticizing nonbelievers for bafflingly choosing to go against the most absolute and all encompassing truth in the universe in favor of clear self-imperilment. It’s not a clear dilemma between life and death, because for that choice to exist someone must first believe, they must first know, that the choice exists. It’s a matter of being convinced. And who wouldn’t choose life? How many people do you know who believe in the Christian God, but aren’t Christian? It’s practically unheard of. To make a choice, one first has to be aware that the choice exists. Hence other religions and sects, which are made up of people who think they’ve actually found the truth. Jews, Muslims, and Christians so often frame the whole issue inappropriately like I explained above, and the people who aren’t part of their faiths find it terribly obnoxious.

God didn’t provide people with a clear choice to follow Him or not; if He had there would be no doubt, no plurality or religions, no faith necessary, simply the undeniably truth, recognized by every human as incontrovertible fact, as clear as the mathematical reality of 1 + 1 = 2. Instead, He leaves people to wander the earth, falling into the pits of hell if they never manage to solve the greatest philosophical question man has ever known.

The kind of God that would go ludicrously out of His way and bend over backwards to make sure everyone had the chance to come to Him is the kind of God that would let us choose life or choose death.

You said above that it was a fairly simple choice between doing what is right and doing what is wrong. The God who makes sure everyone has the chance to come to him is a rational and benevolent one. If people don’t have an equal chance as others, that’s unfair and therefore unjust and arbitrary. If some people don’t have a chance, that means they failed at no fault of their own. An example would be someone who lived their whole life honestly believing Islam to be truth.

Nothing is left to chance because, if God is the controller and author of history, chance cannot exist.

If nothing is left to chance, then how can free will exist? How is one’s religious belief not the culmination of forces out of their control?

Why do people go to hell? I'm not God, and so not a judge. But my best guess? Because we do wrong, and it's the consequences of our actions. If I choose to drink lighter fluid and die, it's no ones fault but my own. It isn't the manufacturers fault, it isn't Wal-Mart's. I'm the one that picked up the bottle and slurped it down.

Ah, but why do we do wrong in the first place? This is why I’ve been arguing complete free will doesn’t exist. You picked up that bottle, but have outside forces not ceaselessly influenced and molded you from your birth up until that moment? Is who your are, your mind, your brain, your conscious and subconscious not the product of those outside influences and how your biology and chemistry has responded to those things? Nature and nurture. Maybe there is some free will in the universe, I can’t rule it out for sure when there is so much about the existence and consciousness humans don’t and probably will never know, but there is no way free will is absolute.

Adam and Eve tainted this planet like I said earlier, but that's immaterial in the end because we ourselves break God's law in our own lives. Everyone has, there are no sinless people. And God gave us a conscience, so that even if His messengers failed, people would still know what was wrong.

If it weren’t for that original sin, people might have turned out to be sinless. That’s the whole significance of the concept of original sin, we’re the way we are today because of that past event.

And people don’t come out of the womb with some kind of universal conscious that come preprogrammed to tell you “X is the real God, and here’s a black and white list of Do’s and Do Not’s.” There’s moral ambiguity and self doubt in life. A feeling one has isn’t necessarily a fact reflected in the world. Views of right and wrong can differ.

My take as to what the point of existence it? What is the point of any story (The good ones, I mean. Not the meaningless entertainment)? To teach us. Not God, but us. God wanted us to know how much He loved us, and words cannot describe that. So He set about showing us. "A picture is worth a thousand words, but an action is worth them all".

And God is in absolute control, we aren't just rats inside of a maze some mad scientist put together to watch us run. There's a point.

Yeah, I really feel the love behind the action of making me imperfect, putting me in an imperfect world full of suffering and existential problems, and then sending me to eternal damnation if I happen to not uncover the truth and follow it correctly for my short time on earth. Dude, if God is in absolute control, where is the free will!?!? Why is so much of our human experience different than the person standing next to us and dependent on environmental and physiological factors?

In light of your question about there being another way, there was. God created us as perfect, in a perfect world, with no sickness, death, war, or disease. We broke that. Rather, Adam and Eve did. And we're paying for their mistake. It's not an overdue payment on our fathers sins, it's us having to deal with a gigantic radioactive spill our fathers caused. Also, there is another way, after the other way. God doesn't cause us to war with each other, that's our choice. If we asked God to send fire from heaven on each person who decided to start a war, we would have no choice but to life in terror, wondering if our neighbor would report each falsehood or sommat to God, and get us zapped. He loves the murderers just as much as He loves the saints.

It’s making us pay indirectly, because even though we’re not blamed for the spill we’re blamed for how we behave under the influence of said spill. A world simply with slightly less suffering would already be a better one. It’s one thing if God wanted there to be some trials in the world, but things like genocide? What horrors would it take on earth to shake your faith in God? He loves the murderer more than the saint, by leaving the saint at the mercy of the murderer.

the road analogy was just that. I figured you would see that the way we drive was designed in a set way. Also, you (not just you, remember that. It's important.) are the guy who drives on the wrong side of the road. Hatred, lust and lies pour from the human heart, making Adam's choice immaterial.

Why should humans be blamed for the evil that comes out of their hearts, if they did not make their hearts? We just carry out what’s inherently in us. If Adam’s choice is what opened the Pandora’s box of things like lust and hatred, then it really is his fault for causing my modern day heart to spill forth such things. And for the record, I would argued that hatred and lust etc. pour forth from our biological history.

I quoted that because it's absolutely brilliant. God's justice (the only justice) requires that some form of reimbursement be paid in order to be forgiven. God knew that no human would ever be able to pay that price, so He paid it Himself. Why? Out of love. Only love.

What’s so profound about an eye for an eye? Instead of cutting out our eyes, which would be insufficient, He mutilated Himself?

Forgive:

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.

2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).

3. to grant pardon to (a person).

4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.

5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

As you can see, the whole meaning of the word, the whole point of forgiving, is that you’re giving up ill feelings towards another without necessarily being paid what is due to you. The act of forgiving someone who owes you money as you bring them to small claims court is dishonest and contradictory. And how can God pay any price? Wouldn’t the act of giving something up entail being less than infinity powerful? Was dying and coming back to life again three days later really a sacrifice? The significance of giving up a life is that you don’t get it back….

God made the perfect world, and gave it to us as a gift. We broke it (both Adam and Eve, and us every time we sin) and made it the way it is today. So, though God actually created it, we made the world the way it is. It's also clear from that that we cannot make our own world. This planet is rife with evil. You said so earlier. But we can't have it both ways. You can have a God who is a dictator, throwing lightning bolts at whoever disagrees with Him, or you can have a God that made us perfect, but much like parents and children, tried to raise us right, but we rebelled and did what we wanted, breaking the great house He gave us.

For some of the reasons I’ve already touched on, I think that’s a false dilemma. And btw, once again, if we were PERFECT, then how could we have done wrong!?