Go ask the lizard-guy something....

[Sstavix]

Also, I've totally read Days of Future Past. I was gonna be like "BUT WAIT", and then you said it. XD

Yep - one of the very few depictions of Wolverine actually getting killed. Keep in mind, also, that although Wolverine is tough, he's not invincible. He has his weaknesses - for example, he's the last X-Man you want to throw at Magneto. Speaking of which....

Sad villains, or just evil villains?

I tend to find villains tend to be much more effective and believable if the reader can sympathize with them. Magneto is a good example - in his own twisted way, he's actually trying to make the world a better place, especially for his own kind. While there are some good examples of villains out there doing evil just for the laughs - the Joker comes to mind - I tend to prefer villains who do their villainy in an attempt to bring about what they perceive as good. It makes their motivations much more believable.

[Emwok]

Kingdom Hearts?

[Sstavix]

Kingdom Hearts?

You keep asking me about games that I've never played!

But it's justifiable in this case - I've never owned a console that this game is available on....

At least as far as I can remember. Was it release as part of the Wii Virtual Console? I can't remember....

Still, the idea of playing a RPG where you can control Donald Duck and Peter Pan always struck me as a bit Goofy.

[Chozon1]

I always enjoy a good clear cut villain, personally. I think the fiction world has been inundated with "BUT I HAVE A SAD BACKSTORY SO THIS IS OK" villains. I like it when I can sit back and enjoy the heroes pasting some ancient evil, and not have to feel a note of sadness for some random school kid gone dark wizard.

Mini pizzas?

[Sstavix]

I always enjoy a good clear cut villain, personally. I think the fiction world has been inundated with "BUT I HAVE A SAD BACKSTORY SO THIS IS OK" villains. I like it when I can sit back and enjoy the heroes pasting some ancient evil, and not have to feel a note of sadness for some random school kid gone dark wizard.

Well, think about how it compares in the real world. What motivates people to do evil things? There are lots of people who do do evil things... but like most disposable mooks in fiction, they tend to have short-sighted, self-serving visions. Those that are the criminal masterminds at the top of the ladder - often the ones hiring the short-sighted mooks in the first place - often believe that they are doing what they do for a good cause, even if their sense of morality may appear warped to the rest of us. There are extremely few instances of people who are calling the shots who are merely doing it "for teh Evulz." Note that I'm not justifying their actions in any way, but by having clear-cut motivations, it can help a fictional villain seem more realistic and, as a result, believable. Even if said villain can bench-press school buses and fire laser beams out of his eyes.

Mini pizzas?

If it's a pizza it's bound to be good, regardless of size (depending on toppings, of course). The only problem with mini pizzas may be not getting enough of them to fill you up....

[Emwok]

Kingdom Hearts?

At least as far as I can remember. Was it release as part of the Wii Virtual Console? I can't remember....

That would be cool. I only got the latest one because my friend gave me an extra copy of his. If it's on Wii VC, I will have to get it.

Plaid?

[Sstavix]

Plaid?

Of course! I couldn't be proud to be Scottish and not like plaid! In fact, my wife and I had a set of coasters made with our family plaid on them....

[Chozon1]

Well, think about how it compares in the real world. What motivates people to do evil things? There are lots of people who do do evil things... but like most disposable mooks in fiction, they tend to have short-sighted, self-serving visions. Those that are the criminal masterminds at the top of the ladder - often the ones hiring the short-sighted mooks in the first place - often believe that they are doing what they do for a good cause, even if their sense of morality may appear warped to the rest of us. There are extremely few instances of people who are calling the shots who are merely doing it "for teh Evulz." Note that I'm not justifying their actions in any way, but by having clear-cut motivations, it can help a fictional villain seem more realistic and, as a result, believable. Even if said villain can bench-press school buses and fire laser beams out of his eyes.

I understand, but the problem is that while you may not believe their actions are OK, there are too many people in the real world who would claim "mitigating circumstances" and treat the evil actions as not that bad. And that frustrates me, and so I get rather tired of it flooding the fictional world. Plus, it's easier to dislike a villain when their actions are senseless.

Glue sticks up the nose?

[Sstavix]

I understand, but the problem is that while you may not believe their actions are OK, there are too many people in the real world who would claim "mitigating circumstances" and treat the evil actions as not that bad. And that frustrates me, and so I get rather tired of it flooding the fictional world.

But that's what makes the villains more realistic - that they are able to find others that agree with their philosophies. I don't mean to be picking on DC (and don't really want to start a DC vs. Marvel debate) but it's one reason why I never really understood villains like the Joker or Two-Face. They are villains who don't really have a grand scheme for world domination, but they are able to get flunkies to follow them around anyway. Why? A paycheck? Most two-bit thugs would probably take one look and say "Dude, that's the $%#$ing Batman - I don't get paid enough for this #$%!" and run without putting up a fight. And that wouldn't lead to a very dramatic fight scene or video game....

Plus, it's easier to dislike a villain when their actions are senseless.

There are some pretty good solo villains out there, such as the Green Goblin, Omega Red and Dr. Octopus. But many of these villains are powerful enough that they don't need a bunch of guys to do their dirty work. So a good blend of the two in a comic book universe can be quite effective.

Glue sticks up the nose?

Are you thinking of things a super villain can do to torment a captured superhero?

[Chozon1]

I'd still disagree, I think. On principle of disliking the flooding that flavor of villain has become in fiction (literally, they're everywhere). And also because I think 90% of real life villains aren't like that.

Failstate?

[Sstavix]

I'd still disagree, I think. On principle of disliking the flooding that flavor of villain has become in fiction (literally, they're everywhere). And also because I think 90% of real life villains aren't like that.

One of the reasons why it's so prevalent in fiction is because it's a very effective trope to use. It tends to add more depth and believability to a character by having more of that backstory.

But you bring up something that I think is worth exploring more - you indicate that 90% of real-life villains aren't the kinds of people that are driven to evil acts by their past circumstances? I would actually argue the opposite - 90% of criminals are influenced and motivated by their past experiences, and it's only the 10% - or possibly less - of rare cases where a criminal act is purely spontaneous. Barring accidents and false accusations, of course - I'm talking about those who deliberately set out to break the law, whether it's murder or swiping a candy bar from the grocery store.

So do you think that some people are simply born evil, and are predisposed to commit evil acts? Or do you think the person's environment they were raised in has some factor in their behavioral patterns and sense of morality?

Failstate?

Sounds like some low-budget insurance company.

[Chozon1]

Hang on there; you're saying two different things, and I'm getting caught in between. I meant 90% of real life villains don't have a master plan for crime, but just do criminal things for whatever reason.

I do happen to think people are born with a predisposition for sin. But that's biblical. Do I think past circumstances force you to do evil? No. I think it's still a choice. Do I think growing up in crummy circumstance can lean you towards doing wrong? Probably. But it's a still a choice, not a forced action. The problem is, it seems like in the modern world, people think that growing up in a bad environment is an excuse for doing evil. And I'm not OK with that.

Failstate is an epic comic-based superhero book series.

Eating so much, it makes you sleepy?

[Sstavix]

Hang on there; you're saying two different things, and I'm getting caught in between. I meant 90% of real life villains don't have a master plan for crime, but just do criminal things for whatever reason.

And it's that "whatever reason" that I'm talking about. For the most part, criminals have a motivation to do their crimes. They have a reason why they're breaking the law. A lot of times those reasons are entirely self-serving, but they often justify it in their own minds (e.g. "The Man has been holding me down, so this is my way of getting what I deserve.")

I do happen to think people are born with a predisposition for sin. But that's biblical. Do I think past circumstances force you to do evil? No. I think it's still a choice. Do I think growing up in crummy circumstance can lean you towards doing wrong? Probably. But it's a still a choice, not a forced action. The problem is, it seems like in the modern world, people think that growing up in a bad environment is an excuse for doing evil. And I'm not OK with that.

I quite agree with you. Evil actions should not be condoned, no matter how well-intentioned or justified they might be. There should be consequences for actions. Just because someone was raised in a crummy environment doesn't mean they have an excuse to continue that sort of behavior.

However, when we're looking at depictions of villainy in fiction, you implied that 90% of criminals in real life don't have these types of backgrounds. You stated that you'd like to see more instances of people doing bad things not because of their background, but because they are inherently bad people. Although this can work with some fantasy settings, where entire races can be depicted in such a light (such as goblins or orcs), when you try to apply this to humans it doesn't work nearly as well. Trying to create a society of humans that do bad things just for the sake of doing bad things doesn't come off as very believable, and as a result, most readers won't take such works seriously.

Failstate is an epic comic-based superhero book series.

I may have to look it up!

Eating so much, it makes you sleepy?

This seldom happens to me. I've seen other people do it, though, and it is funny to watch.

[Chozon1]

And it's that "whatever reason" that I'm talking about. For the most part, criminals have a motivation to do their crimes. They have a reason why they're breaking the law. A lot of times those reasons are entirely self-serving, but they often justify it in their own minds (e.g. "The Man has been holding me down, so this is my way of getting what I deserve.")

Yeaaaaah...I'ma still disagree. For one thing, those are not the whatever reasons I was thinking of. Most criminals, I think, don't rationalize breaking the law. When you speed, for instance, you probably don't even think about why you're doing it. You don't think "Well, if I go x over the speed limit, I'll reach this location quicker. Those are just suggested speed limits, and I'm a competent driver." You just want to get wherever you're going quicker.

For another, that's not really ever the reason "realistic" fictional villains have. It's usually some sad backstory that negates the evil. If you've ever watched Phineas and Ferb, Dr. Doofenschmirts sort of mockingly personifies this. Think about Loki, in the Avengers. Doctor Octopus...Even the recent Lizard. They've all got violins playing the background, so there evil isn't *really* their fault.

However, when we're looking at depictions of villainy in fiction, you implied that 90% of criminals in real life don't have these types of backgrounds. You stated that you'd like to see more instances of people doing bad things not because of their background, but because they are inherently bad people. Although this can work with some fantasy settings, where entire races can be depicted in such a light (such as goblins or orcs), when you try to apply this to humans it doesn't work nearly as well. Trying to create a society of humans that do bad things just for the sake of doing bad things doesn't come off as very believable, and as a result, most readers won't take such works seriously.

I didn't say that at all. I just said I was tired of the default "poor little villain" that has flooded the fiction market. Say what you want, I can't accept it as "realistic", or anything more than annoying. Besides the fact that it's fiction; it doesn't have to be real. XD

Who farted?

[Sstavix]

Yeaaaaah...I'ma still disagree. For one thing, those are not the whatever reasons I was thinking of. Most criminals, I think, don't rationalize breaking the law. When you speed, for instance, you probably don't even think about why you're doing it. You don't think "Well, if I go x over the speed limit, I'll reach this location quicker. Those are just suggested speed limits, and I'm a competent driver." You just want to get wherever you're going quicker.

I wouldn't regard speeding as necessarily a criminal act, though. I don't think you can get locked up for life for speeding.

For another, that's not really ever the reason "realistic" fictional villains have. It's usually some sad backstory that negates the evil. If you've ever watched Phineas and Ferb, Dr. Doofenschmirts sort of mockingly personifies this. Think about Loki, in the Avengers. Doctor Octopus...Even the recent Lizard. They've all got violins playing the background, so there evil isn't *really* their fault.

If you're referring to Dr. Octopus in the Spider-Man movie, then it really wasn't his fault, as the control inhibitor chip was destroyed in the accident - the claws made him do it. As for the Lizard... well, as I mentioned before, I prefer the earlier Lizard, who was little more than an anthropomorphic reptile with the intelligence of a lizard. Not evil, just acting on instinct.

Loki is an interesting case, though, because he is evil - it was his place to be evil. It's in his nature as one of the evil gods of the Norse pantheon. However, this is a position and title that he is perfectly willing to embrace. But again, we're looking at how humans are depicted as doing evil, not Asgardians. So Loki falls outside the mold.

And finally, Doofenschmirts is a rather amusing example that lampshades the entire "poor me" backstory that is played out across so many other stories. But where would he be without his backstories? What would his motivation be for trying to take over the Tri-State Area with his malfunctioning -inators?

I didn't say that at all. I just said I was tired of the default "poor little villain" that has flooded the fiction market. Say what you want, I can't accept it as "realistic", or anything more than annoying. Besides the fact that it's fiction; it doesn't have to be real. XD

I guess I haven't read enough books to find these "poor little villain" books that you seem to have found. Although I have read a few books that feature villain protagonists, but quite a few of those tend to lead into a "road to redemption" type of scenario. There are few books or movies that star the villain in which the villain remains the villain throughout the entire piece ("Payback" with Mel Gibson is the only one that comes immediately to mind).

Who farted?

Fartman, who seeks to fill the world with his stench! And yes, he's doing it purely for the EVIL!!!!