Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ArcticFox » Tue May 26, 2015 5:43 pm

:shrug:

You asked me to enlighten you on how it could be debatable.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Wolfeman » Tue May 26, 2015 5:46 pm

There is a difference between gender role and gender identity. Gender identity is established in the womb. Gender role is taught after birth. God establishes gender identity and it is our responsibility to teach gender role biblically.
Really? Where does it say that? By the way, you make sure to differentiate gender role and gender identity, and then conflate the two almost immediately afterwards.
God created them and gave them their gender identity
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 5:1-2
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Matthew 19:4-6
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mark 10:6
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

God commanded us to teach them in all things
Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Titus Chapter 2 speaks on the elder teaching the younger how to behave and act
Psalms 145:4
One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
Deuteronomy 6:7
And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Ephesians 6:4
And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Proverbs 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

While some verses could be taken to mean that we should only teach our children what God says, I think if we view all these verses together, it clearly shows that God calls us to teach our children in ALL things, including how boys and girls should act.



Thing is, I don't think it has to do with God. I don't think He individually creates us every single time a sperm unites with an egg and a baby develops. I've seen too many horrible birth defects to believe in a God that creates children with skin that falls off or without a brain. "Hey, here's some needless suffering! Enjoy the life lesson!" No. Just as I believe in free will (vs. predestination) I don't think that every single thing that ever happened was directly orchestrated by God. "What did God intend to teach us with the holocaust?" Well, maybe He didn't. These things just happen because we live in a fallen world.
Like I said, you're assuming that every time an egg is fertilized, God cracks his knuckles and dives into individually creating every single person. I'm not saying He's never done this, but I think stuff just happens.. Things we're starting to know something about, like, I don't know, genetics. I'm not of the opinion that questioning why a child could be born without limbs (or with some other defect) is questioning our creator. "He's got a plan for all of this!" Well, yeah. He DID, and even Genesis tells of how Man screwed it up. The point is that all of this ISN'T part of "the plan." Genetic defects, teratogens--it's part of the fallen world.
Once again, if there's a God who willfully gives a child horrifying and agonizingly painful/debilitating birth defects that make every waking moment of its life agony and suffering until it dies soon after birth, or a child who has a genetic predisposition to bone cancer, or something like that--that's not a God I'm willing to worship. We live in a fallen world--**** happens, and that includes fetal exposure to teratogens, genetic defects, etc...
This is where we differ. I agree with you that we live in a fallen and corrupt world and that causes a lot of the heartache and pain. However, I do feel God does indeed crack his knuckles, roll up his sleeves and creates each and every individual. Yes, we see some incredibly horrifying, painful and upsetting things. But I feel we miss judge these things because we can not full understand the eternity that is forever. The short life we have here in our present consciousness is absolutely nothing compared to the eternity that awaits us on the other side of death. I've seen too much good come from pain and suffering. I've seen God use horrible circumstances too many times to bring about good. But as you pointed out, we live in a fallen world. The other side of that coin is that a man shall reap what he sows, even if it's his children that do the reaping.

You choose to believe in a God that is Love and couldn't do those things. I choose to believe in a God that is fair, warns us of the consequences of our actions then loves us no matter what.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ArcticFox » Tue May 26, 2015 5:49 pm

Well said.
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool."
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ChickenSoup » Tue May 26, 2015 6:04 pm

There is a difference between gender role and gender identity. Gender identity is established in the womb. Gender role is taught after birth. God establishes gender identity and it is our responsibility to teach gender role biblically.
Really? Where does it say that? By the way, you make sure to differentiate gender role and gender identity, and then conflate the two almost immediately afterwards.
God created them and gave them their gender identity
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 5:1-2
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Matthew 19:4-6
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mark 10:6
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

God commanded us to teach them in all things
Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Titus Chapter 2 speaks on the elder teaching the younger how to behave and act
Psalms 145:4
One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
Deuteronomy 6:7
And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Ephesians 6:4
And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Proverbs 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

While some verses could be taken to mean that we should only teach our children what God says, I think if we view all these verses together, it clearly shows that God calls us to teach our children in ALL things, including how boys and girls should act.
A bunch of related verses together without context do not make a point. These all literally just say to raise children well and don't instruct us about how to address gender identity/roles. Anything pertaining to that is your own spin on it.

This is where we differ. I agree with you that we live in a fallen and corrupt world and that causes a lot of the heartache and pain. However, I do feel God does indeed crack his knuckles, roll up his sleeves and creates each and every individual.
Why?
Yes, we see some incredibly horrifying, painful and upsetting things. But I feel we miss judge these things because we can not full understand the eternity that is forever. The short life we have here in our present consciousness is absolutely nothing compared to the eternity that awaits us on the other side of death.
We misjudge terrible suffering of disabled children, when in truth it's... what? What is the point of that? What could possibly have been done through that, that couldn't have been done more simply without needless suffering?
I've seen too much good come from pain and suffering. I've seen God use horrible circumstances too many times to bring about good. But as you pointed out, we live in a fallen world. The other side of that coin is that a man shall reap what he sows, even if it's his children that do the reaping.
Um... what? So are you insinuating that babies are born with terrible conditions because of a parent's sins? Unless you're talking about maternal exposure to drugs, etc., I don't agree.
You choose to believe in a God that is Love and couldn't do those things. I choose to believe in a God that is fair, warns us of the consequences of our actions then loves us no matter what.
You misunderstand. I choose not to believe in a God that directly puts children through needless suffering.

Look, here's what I think about all the arguments about good coming from suffering, about God using crippled children to inspire others to do good, and all that. I think it's wishful thinking and a way to attempt to rationalize/comfort oneself because we can't fathom why awful things happen to babies. It's a thought process that appeared to have legitimacy when we didn't understand how many developmental processes work, but now we largely know how and why these things happen. No, it wasn't unrepented sin that caused your child to have Down's Syndrome, it is a genetic defect. It's just a fact of life that these things happen. I mean, if you can't shake some sins, yeah, they can carry over to your kids. That is, if you don't repent of your slavery to alcoholism and you drink through your pregnancy, your child will be born with fetal alcohol syndrome. That isn't God's direct involvement, though, that's because exposure to things like that is dangerous for a developing fetus.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Wolfeman » Tue May 26, 2015 8:33 pm

A bunch of related verses together without context do not make a point. These all literally just say to raise children well and don't instruct us about how to address gender identity/roles. Anything pertaining to that is your own spin on it.
I completely agree. Related verses without context do not make a point. However, it is quite clear that God created people as male and female. Not as a man in a womans body or vise versa. The second set of bible verses show a parents responsibility to raise their children and to teach them the Bible. For sake of space, I left out the Bible verses establishing a womans role in the family and society as well as the mans. God is quite clear throughout the Bible that a woman shouldn't try to take a man's place nor should a man try to take a woman's. If a parent fails to teach a child God's established role in the family or society, they have neglected their God mandated duty to train up their children in the way they should go.

This is where we differ. I agree with you that we live in a fallen and corrupt world and that causes a lot of the heartache and pain. However, I do feel God does indeed crack his knuckles, roll up his sleeves and creates each and every individual.
Why?
Because in every other aspect of God's relationship with man He shows a personal relationship and interaction. I could quote several bible verses to show this but without the space and time to go into context and teaching, you've already pointed out it doesn't mean anything to you.
We misjudge terrible suffering of disabled children, when in truth it's... what? What is the point of that? What could possibly have been done through that, that couldn't have been done more simply without needless suffering?
Since we can't see time and the effects of choices from God's perspective, this is merely conjecture. However, we can see God using pain and suffering to work His will and way throughout the Bible. The death of every first born in Egypt is a clear example. The slaughter of entire civilizations commanded by God as the Israelites received Caannan land is another. The suffering of Christ before the Cross. Pain and suffering are part of being human and living on this fallen world. God might not always purpose it but He always has a point to it.
Um... what? So are you insinuating that babies are born with terrible conditions because of a parent's sins? Unless you're talking about maternal exposure to drugs, etc., I don't agree.
Tell that to the child born to David and Bathsheba who died because of his parents sin. Exodus 20:5 states God will visit the iniquity of the parents upon the children of anyone who hates Him to the 3rd and 4th generation. Children learn powerful lessons from their parents behavior. A child that grows up with parents who have sin problems (gambling, prostitution, pornography, abuse, drugs, debt, etc) will more often than not end up living the same problematic lifestyle.
You misunderstand. I choose not to believe in a God that directly puts children through needless suffering.
Again, without God's viewpoint of time, eternity and the effects of each and every thing that happens, how do you know what is and is not 'needless' suffering? Genesis 50:20 shows us that our understanding of various situations and events often doesn't line up with how God sees things.

Look, here's what I think about all the arguments about good coming from suffering, about God using crippled children to inspire others to do good, and all that. I think it's wishful thinking and a way to attempt to rationalize/comfort oneself because we can't fathom why awful things happen to babies. It's a thought process that appeared to have legitimacy when we didn't understand how many developmental processes work, but now we largely know how and why these things happen. No, it wasn't unrepented sin that caused your child to have Down's Syndrome, it is a genetic defect. It's just a fact of life that these things happen. I mean, if you can't shake some sins, yeah, they can carry over to your kids. That is, if you don't repent of your slavery to alcoholism and you drink through your pregnancy, your child will be born with fetal alcohol syndrome. That isn't God's direct involvement, though, that's because exposure to things like that is dangerous for a developing fetus.
Show me that in the Bible.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ArcticFox » Tue May 26, 2015 10:19 pm

It's so weird to me when the Bible doesn't say what people want it to say, and so they rely on their own man-made philosophy over what's Biblical. When God's actions or His word fail to meet these peoples' lofty standards, they either lose their faith or distort it to fit man's preferences.

Then, for an encore, they speak down to people who stick to God's Word.

Seems backward to me.
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"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Deepfreeze32 » Wed May 27, 2015 12:34 am

<mod message>

Ok guys, tone it down. There's no need to get nasty.

</mod message>

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Wolfeman » Wed May 27, 2015 1:21 am

<mod message>

Ok guys, tone it down. There's no need to get nasty.

</mod message>
I didn't think I was getting nasty. My sincerest apologies to ChickenSoup for anything I've said or any tone I've used that was less than Christian. We disagree on things but we should be able to respectfully discuss them.

I would also like to apologies to anyone else who has taken offense to the tone or manner of what I've said.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Deepfreeze32 » Wed May 27, 2015 1:41 am

Just to clarify, this was meant more as a warning that the conversation seemed to be getting more tense, and looked like it could explode into a range of personal attacks. No lines have been crossed yet, but you've come close to the neutral zone.

And believe me, the Romulans won't like it when you cross the neutral zone. :P

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed May 27, 2015 2:14 am

Show me that in the Bible.
You never even showed me how your points were Biblical aside from a couple out-of-context verses followed by "uh, well, there's more, but you don't care about it so w/e."

But you know what? It's all right, I'm checking out here soon. Let's see, has anyone misconstrued my intentions? Maybe implying that because I don't believe the same interpretation, I don't believe in the Bible as a whole?
I could quote several bible verses to show this but without the space and time to go into context and teaching, you've already pointed out it doesn't mean anything to you.
Check.

Condescension and passive aggressive speech without actually refuting any points?
It's so weird to me when the Bible doesn't say what people want it to say, and so they rely on their own man-made philosophy over what's Biblical. When God's actions or His word fail to meet these peoples' lofty standards, they either lose their faith or distort it to fit man's preferences.

Then, for an encore, they speak down to people who stick to God's Word.

Seems backward to me.
Check! (by the way, you know what seems backwards to me? Doing research and drawing conclusions, and then looking down your nose at someone who did the same thing and didn't arrive at the same conclusion.)

I can tell we're going to get caught in the "you don't interpret/follow the Bible the same way I do; therefore, you apparently disregard God and His word" stuff that these always end in anyway. I'm so glad I invested time in this conversation. Thanks.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Sstavix » Wed May 27, 2015 3:06 am

I can tell we're going to get caught in the "you don't interpret/follow the Bible the same way I do; therefore, you apparently disregard God and His word" stuff that these always end in anyway.
That brings up a good point about this debate - or any spiritual debate, really. There is a wide variety of Christian churches in the world, and the reason why there are so many differences is because of different interpretations of the scriptures. Just because the Bible says one thing doesn't mean that two people are going to interpret it the same way - and that's not even getting into different translations and versions!

But despite the differences, we need to remember one very important thing - we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We all should be loving, kind and respectful to each other. We may disagree on different things, but we shouldn't let these disagreements develop into outright hostilities.

Come on, guys - group hug!

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ArcticFox » Wed May 27, 2015 3:20 am

That brings up a good point about this debate - or any spiritual debate, really. There is a wide variety of Christian churches in the world, and the reason why there are so many differences is because of different interpretations of the scriptures. Just because the Bible says one thing doesn't mean that two people are going to interpret it the same way - and that's not even getting into different translations and versions!
All true... but there's a problem.

My comments earlier were meant to be general, building on what Wolfeman said. The problem isn't so much one of differing interpretations, but rather one where people prefer the wisdom of men over that of Scripture, and so rather than interpret Scripture for themselves, they seek to manufacture an understanding of Scripture that allows it to reconcile with popular culture.

For example, I saw a book once written by a minister (I think he called himself a Baptist but it doesn't matter) who was trying to make the case hat the Bible doesn't actually condemn homosexual behavior. It wasn't that he had read the text objectively to seek the real meaning; he had set out specifically to shoehorn scriptural understanding into fitting with the popular notion of homosexual behavior being morally equivalent to heterosexuality. (Ignoring the question of marriage) So it wasn't that it was a simple difference in understanding, it was a case of the philosophy of men overriding the divine word.

And in a way, it's understandable, isn't it? Wouldn't it be so much easier if Scripture really didn't condemn homosexual behavior? We could enjoy all of pop culture and its new favorite trend, we wouldn't have to worry about running afoul of laws forcing people into adopting this new viewpoint, we could participate in more stuff, we could just relax and enjoy the ride into the new century, couldn't we?

So yeah, I understand why that's an attractive solution, and why people do it. Doesn't make it right though.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Sstavix » Wed May 27, 2015 3:40 am

That could bring up another point that could be an interesting debate topic (but likely well off-topic for this thread). By whose authority are those who find Biblical support for homosexuality, or gender disassociation, or what-have-you, claiming? To use your example that you provided, was this Baptist(?) minister claiming that God told him "homosexuality is OK, and here's why?" Or, as you indicate, was he leaning more upon his own understanding and interpretations?

If the former, you can question if he is really a "chosen" speaker for God. If the latter, you have to question what his motivations are, and what he (or his church) stands to gain from it.

And in either case, you ultimately have to decide if you accept his claims, or reject them. And again, others may draw a different conclusion than you do.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Wolfeman » Wed May 27, 2015 5:00 am

Condescension and passive aggressive speech without actually refuting any points?
As I have already stated. I'm very sorry for any passive aggressive tone or offense given. None was meant nor implied.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ArcticFox » Wed May 27, 2015 1:16 pm

Condescension and passive aggressive speech without actually refuting any points?
As I have already stated. I'm very sorry for any passive aggressive tone or offense given. None was meant nor implied.
He was talking to me because he thought my comments were directed toward him personally.
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