Remove the churches get more bad people?

[ccgr]

discuss

[ArchAngel]

Yeah, to the great surprise of no one, I'm saying that's absolutely wrong.

Withstanding that this opinion is highly insulting to... everyone, insinuating that if there isn't a Big Brother in the sky, people are just going to go crazy, there is just bad statistics with this one.

Violent crime is going down. Teen pregnancy is going down. War is, surprisingly, yes, at a low. And non-religious people are on the rise. In america, and Europe before us. Europe has some economic difficulties, but it's hardly a cauldron of crime. In fact, they're far better than the U.S. in that regard and they have even higher percentages of a-religious people.

Even armed with this knowledge, I'm not so unsportsman-like to say that religion makes people behave poorly, unless, of course, it tells people to do crappy things, like honor killings. Frankly, the moral fiber of a people is far more complicated than a checkbox for "are you religious?"

So, you know. This is just all wrong.

[Orodrist]

I'm not so unsportsman-like to say that religion makes people behave poorly, unless, of course, it tells people to do crappy things, like honor killings.

*opens mouth*

*shuts mouth*

*walks away*

[ChickenSoup]

I'm not so unsportsman-like to say that religion makes people behave poorly, unless, of course, it tells people to do crappy things, like honor killings.

*opens mouth*

*shuts mouth*

*walks away*

DON'T TAKE IT SITTING DOWN

*sets two broken pieces of glass on the table*

LET'S SETTLE THIS LIKE MEN

[UsagiGlen]

What would our society look like though if people lived by what the Bible teaches? I'm well aware that we don't live like the Christians in the book of Acts lived. The Bible has teachings such as

Pray for those who persecute you.

If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic as well.

The parable of the good Samaritan, who spent his own time and money to save the life of someone who should have been his enemy by any normal standards.

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's.

The list goes on and on. I guarantee you that if society actually cared about living by these teachings, violent crime, non-violent crime, divorce, and so many other problems would change dramatically for the better.

I haven't taken the time to verify your statistics, ArchAngel. I'm going to assume that they're true for now. If they are, it highlights the fact that not everyone who goes to church actually cares about living by what the Bible says. This is a great tragedy, and a hypocrisy. To my fellow Christians, let's strive to actually live by what the Bible says. "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." (James 1:22, NIV)

[Wildebear]

I lost him at "...democracy works..."

However, God's laws are etched within all of us. When the Roman Catholic church, under Charlemagne, embarked on converting the Germanic pagans he encountered peoples who weren't lawless or devolved. Their pagan societies had certain rules, even though pagan Europeans were bound by honour-based morals, they still lived relatively civilized. The Vikings of all even had laws giving women equal rights. The Germanic tribes also had an interesting justice system. A man's fate was decided by a council of elders - in contrast to Roman law where a single judge delivered the verdict. Germanic law was also more lenient. Where a man was found guilty of lying, cheating or stealing under Roman law, he would receive harsh punishment or even death, but the Germanic justice system was more lenient and allowed payments similar to what we know today as bail.

The good Samaritan is probably a good example we can find out of the Bible. Atheism does not destroy morals, but makes it a question of relativity. A Christian knows pertinently that lying is bad, but for an atheist there is no Judge and no justice. So it rather comes down to why morals are followed rather than the fact that they're followed.

[Bruce_Campbell]

A Christian knows pertinently that lying is bad, but for an atheist there is no Judge and no justice. So it rather comes down to why morals are followed rather than the fact that they're followed.

Is that really better though? I mean, if you're being moral because you expect treasure in heaven, is that really more moral than doing good for the sake of doing good? Is it more moral to not do evil because you don't want God to punish you, or because you love people and you don't want to hurt others?

[Wildebear]

A Christian knows pertinently that lying is bad, but for an atheist there is no Judge and no justice. So it rather comes down to why morals are followed rather than the fact that they're followed.

Is that really better though? I mean, if you're being moral because you expect treasure in heaven, is that really more moral than doing good for the sake of doing good? Is it more moral to not do evil because you don't want God to punish you, or because you love people and you don't want to hurt others?

Good question. As Christians we trust that God is a fair judge. That his laws are there for a very good reason; and we now know that to be true by looking at human history. The implication of obeying God's laws is that you'll be a manifestation of his love. Look at the following:

Galatians 5:22-23
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Good traits aren't they? However, no good deed can deliver us from God's fair judgement. If I were implicated for stealing in a court of law and defended myself by saying that I was a "good person", it would have done nothing to help my case. Such is God's judgement as well, but he sent Jesus to die for us knowing that no man could ever fully obey the ten commandments. Paul said himself that it was foolishness to live by the law alone, for no man was righteous enough to live by it.

Do we consequently do good to go to heaven and avoid hell? Not exactly. As stated above, it doesn't really help our case. Instead we live loving others and doing good in appreciation of what Jesus did on the cross. Thus, the love and sacrifice passed onto us by Jesus, is passed onto others.

[UsagiGlen]

Do we consequently do good to go to heaven and avoid hell? Not exactly. As stated above, it doesn't really help our case. Instead we live loving others and doing good in appreciation of what Jesus did on the cross. Thus, the love and sacrifice passed onto us by Jesus, is passed onto others.

Well said. We Christians certainly are called to do good things because of Christ, but it's not really related to fear of punishment if we understand the Bible's teachings about what saves us. We should treat other people well because we love and respect God, who loves those other people and wants us to treat them well. Of course there are always going to be some Christians who see things differently and try to scare people into being good with threats of punishment. Not all Christians agree with each other, or with the Bible.

[Expat_PM]

What an amazing, eclectic collection of thoughts and personalities reflected in this simple discussion!
We love others not for some reward or even to avoid punishment. We love people because it's the response to God's love that is inside of us as Christ -followers. His love is a most remarkable fountain that only gets more full and more abundant as we pour it out.
It's God's love flowing out of us that makes us want to do right things and to love unlovable people and to be who He calls us to be.

I have a friend who told me not long ago that God is more concerned with who we are than what we do.
Focus on learning to be who God calls you to be rather than sweating over trying to do what God tells you to do.
In my friends simple words, "That's why you're called a human being, not a human doing!"

As long as we are laser focused on being who God has called us to be we won't have too many struggles with doing the right things or not doing the wrong.
As for organized religion and the role of the church all of this? I know I'm blessed to be part of a church that makes a difference in thousands of lives. I just can't thank Him enough for leading us to the place we are in in this season of our lives. I think if more churches taught people to speak uplifting words of life, to love people (especially the unlovable), and to just be who God calls you to be then the world would see the church having the impact that it was originally destined to have.

Just my thoughts