I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby RedPlums » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:02 am

I believe that baptism is necessary, but not for salvation. I myself have been baptized, but that was after I was saved. Baptism is just a way in which we tell the world that we believe in Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less. To me.

No, people do not need to act in a Christ-like and Godly manner to be saved... but they need to act in a Christ-like manner and have a personal relationship with God to be effective servants, if not, God won't be able to use them to get His word out.

Yes, in my personal belief Catholics are not Christians, but that's because I do not use the term 'Christian' as the world does. My idea of a Christian is much less lenient and more specific. But, again, a topic for another thread.

So, God would rather that we practiced free will than be saved? That's what it seems like your saying.

God does not force us into salvation, I have never said that. I agree that He gave us free will to choose between right and wrong, but I disagree that we can do something to lose that salvation. I believe that God loves us too much to give us a 'get-out-of-heaven-free' card.

How do you interpret Ephesians 2:8-9? You are again saying that we must DO something to be saved by stating that salvation is had by faith AND a Christian lifestyle. But Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states we don't DO anything, it is not an action. it is a matter of the soul and putting Faith in Jesus Christ. Not an action.
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby ArcticFox » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:13 am


It honestly baffles me why people will argue so strenuously that "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a thing, or that Baptism isn't necessary.
Are you saying that baptism is not necessary for salvation?
No, it is necessary. I'm saying I don't understand why people argue so strenuously that it isn't when we're commanded to do it anyway.
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:07 am

So, God would rather that we practiced free will than be saved? That's what it seems like your saying.
In a sense, yes. He would rather that we come to Him by our own will and desire to be with Him, to learn from Him and in an effort to make ourselves more spiritually clean and educated. If He wanted us all to be automatically saved, He could have done that regardless of what we desire. If we choose not to seek salvation, I believe that He would be disappointed in us, but will respect our wishes and let us be. That's what a kind and loving father would do, at least.
How do you interpret Ephesians 2:8-9? You are again saying that we must DO something to be saved by stating that salvation is had by faith AND a Christian lifestyle. But Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states we don't DO anything, it is not an action. it is a matter of the soul and putting Faith in Jesus Christ. Not an action.
I would say that it means no one can earn their way into Heaven simply by their actions alone. God's grace is necessary in order to achieve salvation.

However, it isn't the only thing. Read the entirety of Ephesians 2, and not just those two verses. Particularly consider Ephesians 2:10 - "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

We are prepared in order to do good works. If we do not do good works, then what is the point of salvation?

In fact, I would even argue that accepting Christ as one's savior is an action - a work - that has to be done. Implying that no works need to be done - that salvation is granted automatically to every person, whether they want it or not - is headed down the road of predestination and the lack of free will.

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Comotto » Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:37 am

While I find this discussion interesting and a testament to the participants knowledge of scripture, my opinion is that an individual's belief in the existence of OSAS to be pointless. If I choose to live my life as a follower of Christ, my faith in Him should bring me home. Why would I care in OSAS unless I decided to turn to the dark side after accepting Him? Just saying.

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:19 pm

While I find this discussion interesting and a testament to the participants knowledge of scripture, my opinion is that an individual's belief in the existence of OSAS to be pointless. If I choose to live my life as a follower of Christ, my faith in Him should bring me home. Why would I care in OSAS unless I decided to turn to the dark side after accepting Him? Just saying.

CARZ

Yeah this, prettymuch.
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby RedPlums » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:09 pm

While I find this discussion interesting and a testament to the participants knowledge of scripture, my opinion is that an individual's belief in the existence of OSAS to be pointless. If I choose to live my life as a follower of Christ, my faith in Him should bring me home. Why would I care in OSAS unless I decided to turn to the dark side after accepting Him? Just saying.

CARZ
YAY! I learned to quote somebody! I feel accomplished. :D

It matters because it is a matter of eternal security, if one is not sure if he/she is going to go to heaven then they are in a constant state of fear and worry, and that is not good for a Christian.
But, I see where you're coming from and I agree.

While works isn't the subject of this topic, I will follow you down this rabbit trail, it could be fun. :wink:
Ephesians 2:10 says we are created for good works. Not that good works get us into heaven. It just states that God wants us to be doing good things to bring Him honor and glory.

I don't understand how a mental/spiritual decision is an action or a work. Elaborate maybe?
Also I don't believe in pre-destination as I have said previously so please do not in any way assume I do.
I'm implying that no works need to be done to be saved because I don't think that a decision of the soul is a work. We don't DO anything, we decide on something.

Baptism is a symbolic action that Christians do once they have been saved, it is a way of telling the world that we have put our faith in Jesus Christ and are saved. Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:4 Both say that by baptism we were buried with Christ and raised with Christ. We cannot literally be buried and raised with Christ, that is impossible. So it must be symbolic. That is all baptism is, a symbol of our devotion to Christ.
However, this topic is not about baptism so let's get back to the matter at hand.

Some verses I have found about eternal security I'd like you to read and consider what they are saying.

John 10:28 says we are firmly held in God's hand once we have been saved and that no one can take us out. So, if we are in God's hand and cannot be removed, how could we lose salvation? That is impossible, neither we nor anyone else is physically or spiritually able to remove us from God's hand. And He certainly wouldn't let an un-believer in His presence, so it is contradictory to scripture to say we can lose salvation if God won't even let us leave!

John 6:37 says Christ will never cast us out. Simple as that, not for any work, thought or word will He cast us out.

Romans 11:29 says the Gifts of God are irrevocable. Again saying we can lose this gift of salvation is contradictory to scripture. Here the Bible clearly states that any gift God gives us, cannot be removed.

2 Corinthians 1:22 says that God has put a seal on our hearts and has given us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. So, if the Holy Spirit, whose sole purpose is to help the believe in his/her path towards heaven, is within us, how would the Spirit ever let us abandon that path and leave God? That goes against exactly the reason we have the Holy Spirit in us.

My signature verse(s), Romans 8:38-39 clearly lists many things that cannot remove us from God's love.

Ephesians 1:13-14 again says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and that it is a guarantee for our inheritance in Heaven. So, if we have been saved, we have the Holy Spirit in us, and that Spirit guarantees we will be in Heaven to receive an inheritance.

John 6:40 says that whoever believes will be raised up on the last day. No conditions, no frills, no fine print, just that, when Christ returns He will take all believers who have lived and are living up to Heaven. It also states that EVERYONE who believes in Christ will be saved and raised up. So, anyone who has, is or will be saved is going to be taken to Heaven.

Romans 11:6 tackles that works issues a little more. If God offers us salvation by grace through faith, then that is all it takes. Saying we need works to get to heaven is saying God's grace is not enough and that God needs our help to save us.

Hebrews 13:5 says God will never leave us nor forsake us. If someone decides not to be saved anymore, how could God indwell that person? He couldn't! But God Himself says He will never leave us, so that idea contradicts scripture.

Ephesians 4:30 again says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. What action of ours could ever overcome the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians again says the Spirit is a guarantee.

John 4:14 says we will never be thirsty again once we have been saved.

Romans 9:16 says that it does not depend on the man but on God's mercy.

John 14:15-16 says that the Helper (holy Spirit) will be with us forever. Now the Holy Spirit could not be in an un-saved human being, so it could not be in a Christian who decides to reject God and his/her salvation. Thus the person who does so must never have had been saved before.

Romans 8:1 states there is no condemnation between us and God. If a person rejects his/her salvation then their would suddenly be condemnation between them & God and everything God has given them, (the holy spirit, an inheritance, a place in His hand, peace and guidance and wisdom) would all be revoked. Yet, God's gifts cannot be removed.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 clearly states whatever God does endures forever, nothing can be added to it or taken away from it. It lasts, forever. It is ETERNAL.

John 1:12 states that those who believe are Children of God. And if we are children we have then all of the gifts God has given us and we are safely kept in His hand and cannot be removed.

Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the source of Eternal Salvation. Eternal Salvation... not much clearer than that.

John 3:36 says those who are Children of God have the Son, but those who do not have the Son, then God's wrath is on them. So, for one to suddenly reject God and his/her salvation not only means all of God's gifts would have to be removed (which is impossible) but also that they are now on a path towards Hell. Why would God let that happen?

Galatians 4:6-7 states we are sons and heirs of Gods. AS I said before, you cannot change what family you are born into. Likewise we cannot decide to leave God's family and join the world.

Starting in John 6:50 Christ talks about how He is the living bread and if anyone partakes of the living bread he will never die. That would contradict the idea of losing our salvation.

Many verses here that contradict the idea of losing our salvation.
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:40 am

I don't understand how a mental/spiritual decision is an action or a work. Elaborate maybe? ... I'm implying that no works need to be done to be saved because I don't think that a decision of the soul is a work. We don't DO anything, we decide on something.
I believe that making that decision, making that dedication, is a work, and probably the most important work that anyone can do in this life.
Also I don't believe in pre-destination as I have said previously so please do not in any way assume I do.
But at the same time you argue that everyone who decides to follow Christ is automatically given the same reward, even if they choose to abandon that path. If we are not permitted the consequences of our actions - if everything we do doesn't mean squat, because our fates are already decided for us - then what is the point of free will? Just a tantalizing illusion until we die and God says "Just kidding. This is what I have in store for you...."? If so, that makes it seem like God is uncaring and capricious - He doesn't care what we think or want, He'll do what He wants regardless of what we do. To me, that doesn't seem to fit the image of a loving Father.
That is all baptism is, a symbol of our devotion to Christ.
So you disagree with Jesus when He says it is required "to fulfill all righteousness?"
Some verses I have found about eternal security I'd like you to read and consider what they are saying....
I think it's time to finally play my card I've been keeping close to my chest. ;) Because you know what? In a sense, you're right. No one can really lose their salvation. They can choose to deny it (we'll get to that in a moment), but God's grace extends to all who choose to follow Christ.

And the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints agrees with you, too.

Let me tell you about the "Degrees of Glory." Now this is hinted at in the scriptures (see 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 and Revelation 22:10-11), but it's vague. Joseph Smith (the first prophet of the LDS church) prayed about this and received revelation that he wrote down as the 76th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Needless to say, this is something unique to the Mormon church, but in my opinion, it's one of the neatest revelations that the church has, because it makes logical sense, and it answers the question, "if God really loves His children, then why would He condemn them to Hell? What if they never received the chance to learn about Jesus? That doesn't seem like something a loving Father would do - would he really dang someone for the slightest disagreement to His teachings?"

The answer is - no. Not if God is a kind and loving Heavenly Father. And the vision that Joseph Smith received of what Heaven is like reflects this wonderfully!

To try and sum it up, Heaven will be divided into three parts. The lowest level, called the "Telestial Kingdom," is described as having "the glory of the stars." This is apparently the most Earth-like of the three kingdoms, and where those that have never learned of Jesus or those who have rejected the messages of the gospels. It also will include those who love the material world and sin more than God. Although those here will still receive the Holy Spirit and the ministering of angels and other divine messengers, they will be forever set apart from Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Still, their reward is described as being better than what they have on Earth now, primarily because they'll have a perfect knowledge of what they've done, and they'll be prompted to not live in a sinful fashion again. Oddly enough, some of the descriptions of this Telestial Kingdom sounds a lot like what the Jehovah's Witnesses think heaven will look like.

The second level is called the "Terrestrial Kingdom," and is described as having the "glory of the moon." This is the realm where those have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior automatically will go - those who are saved, basically. They may not have been good enough to make it up to the next level - either because they were misled by other men, or they didn't remain faithful to their beliefs, or other reasons. Although they won't be able to be in Heavenly Father's presence, it is said that Jesus will visit this kingdom often, to minister to those here. Personally, I can't help but wonder if this will be the "fluffy cloud heaven" that so many people think of when they think of Heaven. :)

The third and highest level is called the "Celestial Kingdom," and this is the realm where Heavenly Father and Jesus resides. It is said to have the "glory of the sun," and those here have not only accepted the truth of Jesus and His Gospels, but they also have remained faithful to their covenants and fulfilled all the requirements to enter this highest realm (such as baptism). Joseph Smith taught that the Celestial Kingdom is further divided into three sections, with the highest reserved only for Heavenly Father, Jesus and others that have entered into "celestial marriages." However, there is little else known about these divisions - at least not that has been revealed to us. This information might be forthcoming later, or perhaps after we die.

In any case, we won't have access to these "degrees of glory" until after the resurrection. Until that time, after we die, our souls will be in a region called "spirit prison." While here, we'll have a chance to reflect on our lives and what we should have done, instead. It is also believed that we'll have a chance to atone for our sins in this state, and by proxy through living relatives still on Earth, be able to accept some of the ordinances required to advance into a higher degree. This is one of the main reasons why the LDS church believes in baptisms for the dead - it gives our ancestors the opportunity, if they accept it, to receive a higher reward. Our God is a God of second chances, and it certainly seems to me to be a loving gesture to give us a chance even after we've passed away!

"But, Sstavix," you may be asking, "what about Hell? Don't Mormons believe in eternal punishment?" One thought is that this includes the Spirit Prison, but it's a temporary state - after the first resurrection (the millennium) those still here will have the choice to accept the Gospel of Jesus or reject it. Then there is the Outer Darkness. What kind of people would be cast out there? The "Sons of Perdition." Satan and his angels will be cast out there, along with all the people on the Earth who have learned and accepted the truth about Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and His plan... and then deliberately strive to go against it. Whether or not this is permanent or a temporary state - if people can earn their way out of the Outer Darkness - has not yet been publicly revealed to us on Earth.

So, there you go. According to the Mormon church, nearly everyone has a chance of making it to Heaven, and since God loves His children so much, you don't even have to be a believer in order to receive even the lowest degree of glory. It makes sense to me, especially if God is a kind and loving Heavenly Father. But it also respects His great gift to us of free will. We are free to live our own lives, and we are free to receive the consequences of the decisions we make, too. We also are granted mercy to atone for the mistakes we make - even after we pass away and have a more perfect knowledge of where we went wrong. I know that some of you who have read this far will reject this message simply because of its source, but to me, this makes perfect sense, and makes working for Him all the more rewarding. But I've gone on long enough, so I'll leave this message with you in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ, amen!

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby ArcticFox » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:23 pm

I'll leave this message with you in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ, amen!
Amen!
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby ccgr » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:05 pm

Jesus spent a good portion of His ministry talking and warning about hell though....

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:44 pm

Jesus spent a good portion of His ministry talking and warning about hell though....
Indeed, and that could be an interesting topic for another thread, too. We've sometimes talked about what the nature of heaven would be, but what would be the nature of hell?

I have a feeling that part of it would entail listening to the Chipmunk's renditions of Justin Bieber songs....

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby RedPlums » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:00 pm

Jesus spent a good portion of His ministry talking and warning about hell though....
Jesus did talk about hell, quite a bit. And He made it very clear many times that one who is not saved will go to the lake of fire and then to hell. So, Sstavix, by claiming there is no Hell and all people will go to some form of heaven you claim Jesus was lying.

Also, you get the idea of various forms of heaven from 1 or 2 verses out of scripture? You're basing a massive doctrine off of two verses. Much like the replacement theologists have theirs off of one verse. I'm sorry but I need lots of more evidence to even let me consider that idea.

Also, this is where we differ. You are a Mormon and I am a Christian. Our religions believe different things and thus our answers and arguments will be different. No matter what we say or what evidence we show our answers will never satisfy the other. Realizing this I am ready and willing to close this argument and leave it for other people. I hold firm to my belief that God loves me too much to let me leave my salvation. And you hold firm to your belief. Neither of us will change. I am willing to let this argument end and move on. Are you?
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby TheAlexTDB » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:22 pm

Wow, I'm trying to catch up with the topic :lol: that was a lot!

Anyway just so this is short I personally have a mixed belief on OSAS, let me explain.

I believe that Christians are chosen for God's glory, so in a sense OSAS is true, but not on our terms. What I mean is if Christ didn't choose us, than even if someone thought they received salvation doesn't mean they ever were chosen in the first place. Then how do you know you're saved, is the question. You know if you're saved or not isn't if at one point in life you accepted Christ, but its from that point on how you live, that defines you. I'm not saying we need to perform works for salvation, but actually it would/should be vice versa. Because Christ loves us so much and gave us eternal salvation, that should overflow out of us out to the world.

Another point I'd make is whom are we serving? Without Christ, we serve the flesh... aka ourselves. But since Christ gave us an alternative source to serve; we through Him, can serve God rather than ourselves. Without Christ we don't have the ability to serve God, we can only please ourselves. So personally I believe its either God or man who we serve, there's no middle ground.

How does free-will fit into this? I'm glad you ask, because I do believe in free will. God knows what we will do in life, and what our end result will be. He allows us to make choices in life, and to think on our own. This would mean that we still have the choice to choose to follow Christ, and if the case is true he would open our eyes at the right time in life to see him and believe.

So, that's out of my head... wait did the conversation end?!
I'll leave this message with you in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ, amen!
Amen!
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby Sstavix » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:51 pm

Jesus spent a good portion of His ministry talking and warning about hell though....
Jesus did talk about hell, quite a bit. And He made it very clear many times that one who is not saved will go to the lake of fire and then to hell. So, Sstavix, by claiming there is no Hell and all people will go to some form of heaven you claim Jesus was lying.
Actually, I wasn't making that claim at all. The aspects of Hell include portions of the telestial kingdom and the outer darkness.
Also, you get the idea of various forms of heaven from 1 or 2 verses out of scripture? You're basing a massive doctrine off of two verses. Much like the replacement theologists have theirs off of one verse. I'm sorry but I need lots of more evidence to even let me consider that idea.
Again, that's not my idea. This is the revelation that was granted to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon by God Himself. Whether or not you accept this vision is a matter of faith. I believe that they did receive this vision and message from Heavenly Father. Whether or not you do is between you and your conversations with God.
Also, this is where we differ. You are a Mormon and I am a Christian.
And as I've said, Mormons ARE Christians. If you maintain this rather bigoted approach - if we can't come to common ground even on this - then there probably is no reason to continue this discussion. Good day to you.
So, that's out of my head... wait did the conversation end?!
I'll leave this message with you in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ, amen!
Amen!
Note: I spent too much time writing and proofreading this I didn't notice I fell a few posts behind xD
:lol: Not at all. In the LDS church, after giving a testimony, a lesson or a talk during sacrament meetings, the speaker typically ends in this fashion. Given how I felt like I was giving a lesson and testimony, I felt it was appropriate to end in the same fashion. :wink:

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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby ArcticFox » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:34 pm

:lol: Not at all. In the LDS church, after giving a testimony, a lesson or a talk during sacrament meetings, the speaker typically ends in this fashion. Given how I felt like I was giving a lesson and testimony, I felt it was appropriate to end in the same fashion. :wink:
Yep, and then the other people present respond by saying "Amen" which is why I said it :)
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Re: I'm Bringing 'OSAS' back!

Postby amyjo88 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:47 am

Wow I missed a lot.

So much to comment on, but I'll stick to what seems most important.

We are not meant to live in doubt and fear. OSAS resolves that, but it raises many issues that are unacceptable. There is an alternative. Our salvation is not hanging by a thread, nor is it locked in an impenetrable box. God's love for us is unconditional, but our salvation is conditional (gaining and keeping it). But, as some have already said, we don't lose it every time we sin or make a mistake.

Salvation isn't a ticket into heaven that we tuck away in our hearts. Salvation is a lifelong process of being made new. Accepting Jesus for the first time isn't our salvation, it's only the beginning. We are saved from sin NOW on earth, not just in heaven. Salvation includes being transformed into Christ-likeness. If that isn't happening, we aren't being saved. Salvation isn't something we check off our bucket list, it is the direction of our entire lives.

Maybe we should change our wording a bit. You can't lose your salvation like you lose your keys. But you can reject your salvation (and heaven) by cutting yourself off from God.

Erm, and maybe we need to check our understanding of heaven? Heaven is not a fluffly place up in the sky, heaven is the Kingdom of God. Not an earthly kingdom defined by borders but a kingdom defined by who your king is. If Jesus is your King, you are part of the Kingdom of Heaven. This Kingdom is coming to earth, has already started to come. Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom, and will bring it to completion. God is not going to destroy this earth because sin/evil/satan messed it up. He is restoring His creation. Hell isn't a fire pit inside the earth, it is being completely cut off from God.


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