Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed May 20, 2015 12:14 pm

So bipolar disorder results from what sin, exactly?
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Sstavix » Wed May 20, 2015 2:48 pm

I suggesting that what we classify as a psychological problem is really a breakdown in the God ordered structure of things. A lack of 2 parent families with Dad having his role and Mom having her role has led to a lot of problems in family and societal structure.
I kind of have to disagree with this sentiment. There are plenty of traditional families out there that produce some messed up kids as a result, too. I can think of a few where abuse issues are a big factor, and at least one set of my relatives (who we don't deal with very often) tend to have the philosophy of "steal what you want, just you don't get caught." So just because someone grows up in a typical nuclear family with a mother, a father and 2.5 kids isn't a guarantee that that person will be a well-adjusted member of society.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed May 20, 2015 2:58 pm

I sort of lump the sentiment into the same group of philosophies as the Prosperity Gospel. The whole "if you're righteous, good things will happen to you" and the "bad stuff happening to you is a result of sin in your life" business doesn't actually play out in real life.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Wolfeman » Wed May 20, 2015 4:50 pm

So bipolar disorder results from what sin, exactly?
The stories the Bible tells about people with mental issues (such as the maniac of Gadara) seems to imply they are the result of demonic possession. Having dealt with a gambling addition and depression personally as well as having family members who have dealt with alcoholism, depression and other mental issues, I'd say I believe Sin play a part in this and possibly a large part. There are certainly medical issues involved but when we see every little issue, behavioral problem or unnatural desire defined as a mental illness I think we have gone way past actual medical issues and started looking for excuses to legitimize sin.

I sort of lump the sentiment into the same group of philosophies as the Prosperity Gospel. The whole "if you're righteous, good things will happen to you" and the "bad stuff happening to you is a result of sin in your life" business doesn't actually play out in real life.
Prosperity Gospel is clearly not taught in the Bible. However, the Bible does clearly state that Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Job was called a righteous man, yet he suffered more than most. Good things happen when we do what God teaches us to do and Bad things happen when we don't but because we can't see our lives the way God sees them, what God calls good and bad may not be what we call good and bad.
So just because someone grows up in a typical nuclear family with a mother, a father and 2.5 kids isn't a guarantee that that person will be a well-adjusted member of society.
You will always get better end results when you have a better starting product. In the genealogy of Christ, we see two women with very checkered lives who are both members of groups God has excluded from his blessings. Yet, they are both used to bring the Messiah to birth. However, for His actual birth it had to be a woman of a much higher stock and standards.


Let me be clear. God can do anything with anyone, irregardless of background and history. Some people have actual mental problems that have nothing to do with how they've lived, what sin they are or have been involved with, families or genetics. But some of what we label as mental problems is nothing more than sin and our attempts to legitimize it.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed May 20, 2015 5:07 pm

So we just chalk it up to demonic possession? Yeah, I'm not buying it.
However, the Bible does clearly state that Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
That doesn't dismiss an entire field of research and clinical treatment.
Job was called a righteous man, yet he suffered more than most. Good things happen when we do what God teaches us to do and Bad things happen when we don't but because we can't see our lives the way God sees them, what God calls good and bad may not be what we call good and bad.
So... yeah, but what does that add in support of your position? Job is either a parable or a testament that God is willing to toy with people. Either way, he didn't do anything wrong and yet was subjected some pretty horrific stuff.
You will always get better end results when you have a better starting product.
Of course. Aside from all the terrible people that came from good starting products, or the great people who came from terrible starting products, but sure.
In the genealogy of Christ, we see two women with very checkered lives who are both members of groups God has excluded from his blessings. Yet, they are both used to bring the Messiah to birth. However, for His actual birth it had to be a woman of a much higher stock and standards.
If there was any message that should come from the genealogy of Christ, I don't think it is what you're making it out to be. To me it would seem that the whole ancestry was founded upon damaged goods, yet God brought something great our of it. The fact that Mary was a godly woman is important in general but not really pertinent to a disvusson of how families work, at least for what we are discussing.
But some of what we label as mental problems is nothing more than sin and our attempts to legitimize it.
Such as what? You named gender dysphoria and wrote off all of psychology as a product of the gummint.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ArchAngel » Fri May 22, 2015 2:19 pm

Yeah, I'm not an expert on this, but there might be a difference between Gender Dysphoria and wanting to grow up to be a Polar Bear.
I'd be completely in agreement with you if we were talking about someone who'd been through puberty, at least.
It's true the age does add complexity to an already complex issue. When it comes to surgery, I'm pretty solidly in favor of waiting till your an adult.
On the other hand, gender is far more than just a sexual phenomenon. Kids are very clearly not a-gender before puberty and that's when you take a peak into Schrodinger's box.

At very young ages, kids already separate into gender groups and what "boys" and "girls" do. Gender is a huge component to pre-pubescent kids. It forms very strong ideas and how they should or should not grow.
And sometimes, it's not entirely binary. As a prospective parent, I ponder the nature vs. nurture aspect of this a lot. If these are social paradigms , is it fair to push these roles on children. If certain gender dynamics are more innately biological, is it fair to not provide structure that would allow it to express itself? What happens when it doesn't line up the way I think it should? What if gender roles do have a place and allows structure for a person to grow around? I'm not one to claim women should stay home and cook and clean, but I do enjoy and even derive satisfaction with certain male gender roles that are expected of me.

If a daughter wants to get into "boy" things, I can see myself more than happy to oblige. Play catch with my daughter? Of course! She wants to get into coding? I'd be thrilled.
Now, I won't lie, I'd have a much harder time dealing with a son who wants to play with dolls. What about if he insists that he's actually a girl. Early on, it's easy to chalk it up to simple confusion on gender, but what happens when it turns out a little more permanent? At what point can I say it's Gender Dysphoria versus some childhood fancies?

I don't know. I just hope I can do right by them.

Sorry if I spent this entire post just to say I don't know.

Actually, maybe I'd like to provide a bit of a case study that shows Gender Dysphoria in a sort of backwards way. As an infant, David Reimer was a victim of a botched circumcision that eventually led to the gender reassignment as a female, but even growing up as a female, he never felt female.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ChickenSoup » Fri May 22, 2015 7:49 pm

All this and then there's also the fact that some gender roles vary across populations, especially in places where God's word had not yet taught the locals the gift of shame. (/s :P)
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Wolfeman » Sat May 23, 2015 7:59 am

All this and then there's also the fact that some gender roles vary across populations, especially in places where God's word had not yet taught the locals the gift of shame. (/s :P)
There is a difference between gender role and gender identity. Gender identity is established in the womb. Gender role is taught after birth. God establishes gender identity and it is our responsibility to teach gender role biblically. Even if we believe God made a mistake and placed a man inside of a woman's body or the other way around, that doesn't absolve us from our responsibility to teach nor their responsibility to deny self and follow Christ. God does not make mistakes so if we truly believe ours or someone elses gender identity is wrong, we still have to trust that He did it for a reason.

We do not tell alcoholics, pedophiles, people with bi-polar disorder or other mental illnesses "It's ok. God made you that way. Do whatever makes you happy." Why do we so quick do this when it comes to gender roles and identity?

Do you have an "Ask me a question" thread ChickenSoup? You seem to have a dim view of the Bible and what it teaches (as a whole) and I'd like to get to know you better. Especially if you're a diest or a thiest.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Sstavix » Sat May 23, 2015 9:54 am

Do you have an "Ask me a question" thread ChickenSoup? You seem to have a dim view of the Bible and what it teaches (as a whole) and I'd like to get to know you better. Especially if you're a diest or a thiest.
A good portion of us do have "ask the member" threads, and you can find them all here.

But one thing you mention is also something that I've thought about when it comes to people with gender identity issues. Whether they truly believe or not, there seems to be a subtle implication that, for some reason, God made a mistake when creating that little boy or girl. So in my mind, questioning your gender is also questioning your creator at the same time.

But God doesn't make mistakes - He loves you and has not set any obstacles before you that He thinks you cannot overcome. If you are born a girl and think you should have been a boy (or vice versa), that may be something you need to learn and come to terms with before you return to your creator. There's a special unique challenge that Heavenly Father thought you needed to overcome and experience.
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I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ChickenSoup » Sun May 24, 2015 8:29 pm

All this and then there's also the fact that some gender roles vary across populations, especially in places where God's word had not yet taught the locals the gift of shame. (/s :P)
There is a difference between gender role and gender identity. Gender identity is established in the womb. Gender role is taught after birth. God establishes gender identity and it is our responsibility to teach gender role biblically.
Really? Where does it say that? By the way, you make sure to differentiate gender role and gender identity, and then conflate the two almost immediately afterwards.
Even if we believe God made a mistake and placed a man inside of a woman's body or the other way around, that doesn't absolve us from our responsibility to teach nor their responsibility to deny self and follow Christ. God does not make mistakes so if we truly believe ours or someone elses gender identity is wrong, we still have to trust that He did it for a reason.
Thing is, I don't think it has to do with God. I don't think He individually creates us every single time a sperm unites with an egg and a baby develops. I've seen too many horrible birth defects to believe in a God that creates children with skin that falls off or without a brain. "Hey, here's some needless suffering! Enjoy the life lesson!" No. Just as I believe in free will (vs. predestination) I don't think that every single thing that ever happened was directly orchestrated by God. "What did God intend to teach us with the holocaust?" Well, maybe He didn't. These things just happen because we live in a fallen world.
We do not tell alcoholics, pedophiles, people with bi-polar disorder or other mental illnesses "It's ok. God made you that way. Do whatever makes you happy." Why do we so quick do this when it comes to gender roles and identity?
Because unlike alcoholics, pedophiles, and others, living in a way that makes them happy harms neither themselves nor others?
Do you have an "Ask me a question" thread ChickenSoup? You seem to have a dim view of the Bible and what it teaches (as a whole) and I'd like to get to know you better. Especially if you're a diest or a thiest.
Oh, I don't have a dim view of the Bible or its teachings. I have a lot of words for conservative Christianity's interpretation of the Bible, especially in its views toward sexuality. But yes, I do have a thread for that, and you can ask here.
But one thing you mention is also something that I've thought about when it comes to people with gender identity issues. Whether they truly believe or not, there seems to be a subtle implication that, for some reason, God made a mistake when creating that little boy or girl. So in my mind, questioning your gender is also questioning your creator at the same time.
Like I said, you're assuming that every time an egg is fertilized, God cracks his knuckles and dives into individually creating every single person. I'm not saying He's never done this, but I think stuff just happens.. Things we're starting to know something about, like, I don't know, genetics. I'm not of the opinion that questioning why a child could be born without limbs (or with some other defect) is questioning our creator. "He's got a plan for all of this!" Well, yeah. He DID, and even Genesis tells of how Man screwed it up. The point is that all of this ISN'T part of "the plan." Genetic defects, teratogens--it's part of the fallen world.
But God doesn't make mistakes - He loves you and has not set any obstacles before you that He thinks you cannot overcome. If you are born a girl and think you should have been a boy (or vice versa), that may be something you need to learn and come to terms with before you return to your creator. There's a special unique challenge that Heavenly Father thought you needed to overcome and experience.
Once again, if there's a God who willfully gives a child horrifying and agonizingly painful/debilitating birth defects that make every waking moment of its life agony and suffering until it dies soon after birth, or a child who has a genetic predisposition to bone cancer, or something like that--that's not a God I'm willing to worship. We live in a fallen world--**** happens, and that includes fetal exposure to teratogens, genetic defects, etc...
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Well, yeah, it's a Psalm.. It was written to praise God, not make a statement about fetuses. It's contest, man. Someone could write a song praising God saying "you orchestrated the minutia of my thought processes," but that doesn't somehow attribute God's will in their depression.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby Sstavix » Sun May 24, 2015 11:00 pm

But one thing you mention is also something that I've thought about when it comes to people with gender identity issues. Whether they truly believe or not, there seems to be a subtle implication that, for some reason, God made a mistake when creating that little boy or girl. So in my mind, questioning your gender is also questioning your creator at the same time.
Like I said, you're assuming that every time an egg is fertilized, God cracks his knuckles and dives into individually creating every single person. I'm not saying He's never done this, but I think stuff just happens.. Things we're starting to know something about, like, I don't know, genetics. I'm not of the opinion that questioning why a child could be born without limbs (or with some other defect) is questioning our creator. "He's got a plan for all of this!" Well, yeah. He DID, and even Genesis tells of how Man screwed it up. The point is that all of this ISN'T part of "the plan." Genetic defects, teratogens--it's part of the fallen world.
But God doesn't make mistakes - He loves you and has not set any obstacles before you that He thinks you cannot overcome. If you are born a girl and think you should have been a boy (or vice versa), that may be something you need to learn and come to terms with before you return to your creator. There's a special unique challenge that Heavenly Father thought you needed to overcome and experience.
Once again, if there's a God who willfully gives a child horrifying and agonizingly painful/debilitating birth defects that make every waking moment of its life agony and suffering until it dies soon after birth, or a child who has a genetic predisposition to bone cancer, or something like that--that's not a God I'm willing to worship. We live in a fallen world--**** happens, and that includes fetal exposure to teratogens, genetic defects, etc...
[/quote]

You know... for some odd reason, I had a bit of an epiphany or revelation with the way you put it there. Once again, something just sort of went "click" in my head, to give me an idea about how the universe and the plan works. However, it only really makes sense from an LDS perspective of the scriptures.

If you want specifics, feel free to let me know (by PM, if you prefer, because this goes way off topic). But to summarize, you're right that this wasn't God's choice, but it still ties in with God's plan.

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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ArcticFox » Tue May 26, 2015 8:55 am

Because unlike alcoholics, pedophiles, and others, living in a way that makes them happy harms neither themselves nor others?
That's debatable.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ChickenSoup » Tue May 26, 2015 9:13 am

Because unlike alcoholics, pedophiles, and others, living in a way that makes them happy harms neither themselves nor others?
That's debatable.
Enlighten us, then.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ArcticFox » Tue May 26, 2015 9:30 am

I have found some good source info for this but, as is typical with articles examining homosexual behavior, the discussion contains topics that aren't for the squeamish. I'm sending one such link to ccgr to get her okay before I post it.

(Kinda says something right there.)

I CC'ed you on the message to ccgr so that you will see the article I mean. If she okays it, I'll post it here for discussion.

OK so disclaimer... This article, while technical in nature, describes many graphic items and is not for the squeamish. If you'd rather not look at it, it essentially goes into the details of the health risks associated with common sexual activities between homosexuals.

To be fair, these acts can be undertaken between heterosexuals as well, but there is a cultural difference that makes them far more common within the homosexual community.

So, that's one example of harm being caused to themselves or others.

More examples include the legal side effects of normalizing this sort of thing in our culture, leading to closed businesses, lawsuits and so on which we've discussed to death, for an example of others being hurt.

For more, take a look at the suicide rate in the gay community. It's rising. The usual response to that is that it's a result of bullying and discrimination against homosexuals, but with our culture being friendlier to homosexuals every day, one would expect that suicide rate to be dropping, not rising. Also, most people are bullied for something in their life, at least at some point, so it's an experience that's hardly unique to gay people.

To cover the same-sex parenting issue, studies are finding that, no... they're not equivalent at all, despite the common claims.

In summary, there's strong evidence to support the claim that there are some harmful aspects of the gay lifestyle, either to one's self or others or both.
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Re: Boys that identify as girls can join Girl Scouts

Postby ChickenSoup » Tue May 26, 2015 12:24 pm

To be fair, these acts can be undertaken between heterosexuals as well, but there is a cultural difference that makes them far more common within the homosexual community.

So, that's one example of harm being caused to themselves or others.
I clipped the post a bit in case Cheryl deems the article a bit much for this site and so no one has to go through and edit links within quotes.

Yes, like all sexual activities that are not vanilla in the missionary position, they come with risks that one must be aware of and be responsible about. I'd like to point out that the article goes to some extremes there ("some gay men fetishize human waste"). Um, okay. We're starting to get into just naming weird fetishes that happen to exist, and a lot of these are not unique to the gay population. Actually, most of these are not unique to the gay population.
More examples include the legal side effects of normalizing this sort of thing in our culture, leading to closed businesses, lawsuits and so on which we've discussed to death, for an example of others being hurt.
So did desegregation. I don't buy into the "We can't change--too much stuff would need to change! It would take MONTHS and cost MONEY!"
For more, take a look at the suicide rate in the gay community. It's rising. The usual response to that is that it's a result of bullying and discrimination against homosexuals, but with our culture being friendlier to homosexuals every day, one would expect that suicide rate to be dropping, not rising. Also, most people are bullied for something in their life, at least at some point, so it's an experience that's hardly unique to gay people.
I suppose, then, that your expectation is incorrect and based upon a faulty original assumption.
To cover the same-sex parenting issue, studies are finding that, no... they're not equivalent at all, despite the common claims.
That was just an abstract behind a paywall, unless I misread that or missed the full text link. The abstract basically said "yep, they're different" and one of the tags was "sampling issues."
In summary, there's strong evidence to support the claim that there are some harmful aspects of the gay lifestyle, either to one's self or others or both.
As there are many harmful aspects to any lifestyle that is mismanaged. So, "potentially harmful between consenting adults who acknowledge potential consequences" and "harmful to the few businesses who would be affected."
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