Atheist Murders Three Muslims

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Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby selderane » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:11 am

Link.

Clearly he doesn't represent 99.99999% of all atheists out there and his associate with various atheist groups, and fondness for icons in the community, are immaterial. But the article brings up the core point: Would the media be so forgiving to a Christian? Or even a conservative? We know they wouldn't be because they haven't been.

Timothy McVeigh is an ardent atheist but we still find many in the media, and on the left, who link the Oklahoma City bombing to Christianity.

Should Christians expect a fair shake on issues like these? Were the world fair the answer is yes. But we know it isn't.
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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby ChickenSoup » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:39 am

Um... What? So like, what did you want to happen? For the media to jump on his anti-theism? Because actually, most of the articles I read about it discussed his ardent anti-theism numerous times.

In fact, it is the main subject of investigation right now, since he claims the murders (point blank headshots) were over a parking dispute and the family claims it was for antireligious reasons. That's a huge topic right now, especially since it makes it a hotter story for the media to pounce on.

Is it because they didn't start questioning whether or not all anti-theists are hateful murderers? Would that have made you happy?
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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby Bruce_Campbell » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:14 am

Yeah, I'm not going to play seldarane's game. I will, however, express my sympathies to the loved ones of the deceased.

On a semi related note: Can someone tell me why the ignore function isn't working?
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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby Sstavix » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:20 am

Actually, I think it's the double standard that selderane is pointing out. If this guy was a conservative Christian, you can bet that some media outlets would immediately classify this as a hate crime regardless of what the investigation showed (for example, look at the death of Trayvon Martin. Some people still insist it was a hate crime, even though it's clearly been proven to be self-defense, and not racially motivated). But since this guy is an atheist, the media is giving a bit more slack, and willing to listen to the police to determine if this should qualify as a hate crime, rather than jump to (and report) conclusions.

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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby ChickenSoup » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:39 am

First of all, you're conflating race with religion. If anything, you should be griping about how the media handles race rather than how it handles religion, if you're gonna use the Trayvon Martin example.

Second, I don't know what media outlets you're looking at. There is no way they're going to turn down low hanging fruit when it comes to hate crimes.

These all talk about his anti-theism and/or the possibility of a hate crime:

New York Times: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/12/us ... ?referrer=

Wall Street Journal:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/man-charged ... 1423660668

LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow ... tml#page=1

Yahoo! News:

http://news.yahoo.com/three-muslim-stud ... 28625.html

NPR:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... ims-in-n-c

Most of twitter and Facebook are aflame with arguments one way or another (search #muslimlivesmatter if you are curious). I think by "the media doesn't immediately call it a hate crime," you mean "the media mentioned what the initial police report said."

I don't recall the initial reporting on the events at Ferguson going much differently. They all feigned neutrality by reporting what the police said, while heavily hinting at underlying possibilities with emotional accounts from family and friends. Once again, though, that was a matter of race, not religion.

I'm not arguing that American media doesn't suck, mind you.
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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby Sstavix » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:56 am

You've touched on it right there.
These all talk about his anti-theism and/or the possibility of a hate crime:
The possibility of a hate crime. If the shooter was a conservative or a Christian (or, heaven forbid, both) the media would already be treating it as a foregone conclusion.

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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby Deepfreeze32 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:24 am

And do you have examples of that? (Serious question, never really looked into it)

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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby Bruce_Campbell » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:08 am

I'd call it a hate crime. Or at least say that the fact that the victims were Muslim factored in to this guy's decision to murder them. There's a lot of hate towards Muslims going around these days from both religious and non-religious folks.

Look, here's the thing... we atheists aren't media darlings. Look at pop culture: Do you see many characters who openly call themselves atheists who are portrayed as nice, normal people? I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I can think of several who are portrayed as either jerks or people void of emotion, or snotty academics, or a combination of all three (Sheldon Cooper, Dr House, the lady from Bones). Of course there are people who fit the stereotype, but most atheists you would not be able to peg as atheists if they did not tell you.

I really don't see it as atheists vs (conservative) Christians vs Muslims... they all three face varying degrees of unfairness from the media because none of them are the status quo. Honestly, if you're a liberal-ish Christian, you're golden just about anywhere. And if you're a conservative Christian in the south, you're beyond golden. Like, platinum or something. Whatevs.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that yes, there are double standards in the media, but they aren't ALWAYS against Christians, and they certainly aren't pro-atheist. I think we can all agree that the news media in the US is crappy and unfair to just about everybody except the people who write the paychecks.
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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby ChickenSoup » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:51 pm

Plus, in an incident involving an atheist killing Muslims, it seems a bit inappropriate to be complaining how Christians are viewed, considering how good we generally have it anyway
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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby Sstavix » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:45 pm

Deleted because of the double post... dumb edit button. My reply is below. :)
Last edited by Sstavix on Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby Sstavix » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:46 pm

And do you have examples of that? (Serious question, never really looked into it)
I remember a few years ago when someone disgruntled at having to pay taxes flew his single-prop plane into a Federal building. the only one to die in that accident was the pilot, but the media was quick to label this as the act of a TEA Party extremist... until the authorities found the guy's suicide note. He actually spouted more socialist views than anything representing capitalism. For some reason, the media lost interest after that....
I'd call it a hate crime.
From what I've heard, I would, too.
Look, here's the thing... we atheists aren't media darlings. Look at pop culture: Do you see many characters who openly call themselves atheists who are portrayed as nice, normal people? I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I can think of several who are portrayed as either jerks or people void of emotion, or snotty academics, or a combination of all three (Sheldon Cooper, Dr House, the lady from Bones). Of course there are people who fit the stereotype, but most atheists you would not be able to peg as atheists if they did not tell you.
A list of celebrities came to my mind, including Penn Jillette, Douglas Adams and Carl Sagan... but you asked for characters, didn't you? The only one that I can think of off the top of my head might be David Lister (Red Dwarf). You might find more in the works of Philip Pullman, though....
I think we can all agree that the news media in the US is crappy and unfair to just about everybody except the people who write the paychecks.
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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby ChickenSoup » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:01 pm

So what are you arguing, exactly? That atheists are celebrated? That Christians are treated unfairly? Both? Neither? Just disgruntled?
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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby ChickenSoup » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:08 pm

You've touched on it right there.
These all talk about his anti-theism and/or the possibility of a hate crime:
The possibility of a hate crime.
And you think they aren't going to milk it for more views/reads?
If the shooter was a conservative or a Christian (or, heaven forbid, both) the media would already be treating it as a foregone conclusion.
And if the shooter were Muslim, the same thing would have happened. The media sucks. The real tragedy isn't media coverage right now, it's that three people were killed.

Christianity: "Finding time to feign persecution even when atheists kill Muslims"
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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby Sstavix » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:38 pm

So what are you arguing, exactly?
Simply this - the media is biased, and can't be trusted to be truly objective.

And you think they aren't going to milk it for more views/reads?
Oh, you know they are!
And if the shooter were Muslim, the same thing would have happened.
Most definitely. Quite a few - especially the right-leaning media sources - would probably be quick to label it "terrorism" even if evidence shows to the contrary.

Christianity: "Finding time to feign persecution even when atheists kill Muslims"
A bit like how some people yell "racism" any time someone non-black makes a statement - often not even remotely race-related - about a black person.

... I'm sorry, was that racist? ;)

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Re: Atheist Murders Three Muslims

Postby Bruce_Campbell » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:59 pm

A list of celebrities came to my mind, including Penn Jillette, Douglas Adams and Carl Sagan... but you asked for characters, didn't you? The only one that I can think of off the top of my head might be David Lister (Red Dwarf). You might find more in the works of Philip Pullman, though....
Those are celebrities, not characters. And Red Dwarf is from the UK, where atheism is more tolerated. Honestly, for every one of those celebrities I could name one that is conservative and/or Christian (Chuck Norris, Taylor Swift (not 100 percent sure on her, but then I could probably name half the artists in country music), heck, Alice freakin' Cooper even). From what I heard that Pullman movie bombed in theaters, and the atheistic elements of the books were watered down, but I haven't read or seen either so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Now, you could argue that Christians also get mocked and treated unfairly in popular culture, and I would agree with you. The difference is there are also many places where Christianity and faith are presented as positives. Look at TV shows like 7th Heaven, Touched by an Angel, etc. There really isn't an equivalent for open atheism, and most open atheists are presented as jerks or pariahs. Now, some of that comes from us being a pretty small minority, and again, it's not about atheists vs. conservative Christians, it's about not fitting the status quo. I'd say moderate to liberal Christians probably fit the status quo pretty darn comfortably, but then that's through my biased lens.

Anyway, I don't think this is a productive argument, and CS hit the nail on the head. This really isn't about Christian persecution at all, and it bothers me that someone can read a tragic story like this where there were precisely ZERO Christians involved and find a way to complain about how awful Christians have it in America.
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