The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby ArchAngel » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:45 pm

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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby ArcticFox » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:46 pm

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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby ArchAngel » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:09 pm

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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby Orodrist » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:13 pm

So when the pope says "big bang", is he referring to the scientific theory or altar boys?

Otherwise I really don't understand why people listen to the guy. Some Heathen should take the guys head because of the whole genocide thing.


EDIT: Removed a line that somehow duplicated.
Last edited by Orodrist on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby ArchAngel » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:10 pm

To be fair, a lot of that is more relevant for the last pope (some language behind this link, but a pretty spot on and offensive criticism of the higher ups in the catholic church). You know, the guy who was actually part of the group that drafted the Vatican edict that required popes accused of child rape to be moved and hidden and those who would speak out against it to be excommunicated.
I'd call him Emperor Palpatine, but I like Palpatine.

This being said, there's the cynical side of me that wants to say the new pope is more of a rebrand than actual change. I think he's genuine, but those behind him are the same as they were before.
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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby UsagiGlen » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:42 pm

I find the idea of the church officially endorsing evolution to be absurd, sad, and disturbing. It sounds almost as if he's starting to believe that God is incapable of performing miracles other than manipulating random chance to result in outcomes he desires. Sure God could create a world and its inhabitants by manipulating chance if he wanted to, but is that what the Bible tells us he did? As far as I can tell, our oldest, most reliable records of writings from Judaism and Christianity support the idea that creatures came into existence because God spoke and ordered them to exist.

“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” -Pope Francis

Well, yes I do believe God is able to do anything. If he wants to create a universe out of nothing, without a big bang, he can do that. If he wants to create living creatures out of thin air, he can do that. He is not like us. He is not limited to using methods we know and can understand. That's kind of what the idea of a deity is in the first place. As the Bible says: Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26, NIV)

I suppose it's possible for people to see what they want to see when they read the Bible to some extent. I think the only defense against false teachings is to encourage people to read the Bible for themselves and decide what they honestly think it's saying. If/when you read it on your own, don't just try to fit the Bible into a pre-existing framework of your own beliefs either. If the Bible seems to say something contrary to what you believe, accept that it might really be contrary.

If you end up concluding that the Bible really does describe creationism instead of evolution, and if the Pope says God created through evolution, I believe the only logical course is to conclude that the Pope is in error. Yes I do believe the Pope is in error. As the Bible tells us, no one is perfect, not even one. This includes the Pope. Perhaps he has many good traits, and perhaps he's correct about many other doctrines. If he trusts in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, I still consider him my brother in Christ, although I also consider him greatly misled and would not recommend that people learn from his teachings. I haven't paid enough attention to the Pope to know whether he trusts in Christ for his salvation.

In case you think it relevant, I'm a Protestant and take the Bible pretty literally, other than parts recorded as dreams and visions. To abandon the idea that the Bible is literally true is to open the door to literally every false doctrine. You can just accept whatever you want to believe, and say that the parts of the Bible which contradict your beliefs are inaccurate.

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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby Wintercross » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:37 pm

You know what, I can agree with the Big Bang theory to an extent...

After all, they believe that there was nothing and then a huge flash of light and heat and everything existed.
To me that sounds a lot like God saying 'Let there be light' and dividing the waters/ creating the earth etc.

I cannot justify evolution however. First of all as a Christian I believe that God created all manner of beasts according to their kind. God can create life from nothing because he is God. People make the mistake of trying to understand God within the limitations of his creation. God is not subject to the rules of Physics. It's like saying a coder has to work within the frame of his program, when the reality is he can alter the code and change it to suit his needs, and then he can go make a cup of coffee, something that is completely outside the possibilities of the code he has created.

Evolution doesn't make sense under scrutiny. They think that by adding billions and billions of years to the equation makes it more believable that somehow life just appeared spontaneously, when the actual demonstrable science proves otherwise.

Another thing, there has never been any example of beneficial mutation. All known mutation is one of three types; loss of genetic data, duplication of genetic data or scrambling of genetic data (changing the sequence order)
There is no mechanism for creating NEW genetic data and that in itself shows that evolution is simply not possible.

Take dogs for example, they are not 'evolved' they are selectively bred for specific traits.
All domestic dogs are the same species, including wolves.
They can all interbreed (size restrictions aside) with fertile young and all have the same basic make up.
Selective breeding does not create 'new' traits, it reduces and removes undesired traits while enhancing those that are desired.

No, God is not a magician with a wand. He is GOD. He is the creator and all creation came from him.
I think this is why God warned us about words. He said they have the power of life and death. We are created in his image and he created everything through his words, so perhaps that is why our own words can carry so much power for good or harm?

So, in short... I do not agree with the Pope and I think his words are foolish.
His implication is that God is not all powerful and he is putting God in a box.


Like you said UsagiGlen, the Bible is pretty clear to state when something is a dream, vision or a parable. Genesis is not presented as such. If you assume Genesis to be non-literal then you have to consider all the books written by Moses may not be literal and then you go down the slippery slope of taking the entire Bible as just nice stories with no actual relevance.

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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby elijahward00 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:10 pm

idk the pope!?!?

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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby ChickenSoup » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:32 pm

And yet, many Christians, including myself, accept evolution as the "how" (God being the "why") and can agree with it based on the patterns we find and see in the observable universe. It doesn't make the Bible any less relevant to our faith, either.

I found the greatest satisfaction in my faith came when I stopped ignoring evidence and trying to fit observable phenomena in the world into a predetermined conclusion. It doesn't make God any less powerful or creation any less beautiful that it took longer than 6 literal days to bring us about.
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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby storm » Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:16 pm

This is what comes from one person having so much authority and prestige be it pope or president that whatever they say has impact right or wrong
there is a site about history science and the Bible that shows most of the science facts we know today came from or was already known of in the Bible if I can find it I will post link
I actually knew one professor who taught sociology he had fish ponds like us but he was atheist BUT he said that much of what science leaned on to prove evolution was a single bone flawed carbon dating theory and ego and in fact much of the Bible cold be proven in fact where as evolution was mostly thoughts He said it is easier to prove creationism (yet he refused to believe
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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby Bruce_Campbell » Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:50 pm

I find that most people who are against evolution tend to have very little understanding of how it works or even what it is.
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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby ArcticFox » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:48 pm

I find that most people who are against evolution tend to have very little understanding of how it works or even what it is.
I've observed the same problem with people who support it.

No lie, a friend of mine who is a biology teacher once made the argument "Of course Evolution is true. I can see it just by looking outside and seeing squirrels."

Not kidding.
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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby ChickenSoup » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:56 pm

Well, yeah. That's because that guy is an ignoramus, not because evolution is false.

I believe in evolution because I got tired of the anti-intellectual arguments and answering hard questions with "Well, God just _____." Case in point: Starlight. Rather than sit to contemplate the implications of starlight from celestial bodies millions of light-years away, frantic shoehorning answers immediately come forth from people who have no real answers. I've seen entire alternate theories of photon emission and travel formulated around this to ensure that somehow the millions of light years fit into 6-10 thousand years of creation. Even worse, I've had people argue that God created light on its way from those galaxies so we could enjoy the view (paraphrased), or even that such a discovery would test our faith.

...seriously. I mean, if God is going to create a world in which the universe is trying to trick us, I'm so done with religion. Evolution isn't even a belief system I had to come to terms with, either. It's just an explanation of, among many other things, how we got here. I don't understand why there is such a stigma against scientific thought among fundamentalists, but there is almost a pride in ignorance. I hate it so much when creationism and evolution are compared as if they are theories with equal merit, and there's so much insistence that each requires the same amount of faith.

I can already hear the protest:
"Well, evolutionists reject ideas that don't fit evolution, ChickenSoup! You can't argue that creationists reject ideas that don't fit their predetermined conclusions--it's hypocrisy!"

No. No it isn't. Evolution can and should be challenged, as aspects of it will eventually be shown to be inherently flawed. What so many people don't get is that science readily accepts that; it's just that it's our best current understanding. We update that understanding with research. What creationists tend not to understand is that creationism is not a valid challenge to evolution. What creationists suggest, from the standpoint of an evolutionist, is that we throw out data we can readily observe and replace it with "God did it." It isn't wrong to reject that assertion... because it is a stupid assertion.

"Well, yeah, but you should see some of those evolutionist scientists, ChickenSoup. They get really angry--it's like they're defensive. HMM, IS THEIR THEORY BASED ON A SHAKY FOUNDATION? ERMAGERD ILLUMINATI HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED ETC"

No, they're tired of having to have this discussion for the twentieth time in a field they're passionate about because religious people insist they get an equal say. This semester, I studied neuroanatomy under a brilliant physical therapist who also has a Ph.D in human anatomy. He, too, is a Christian, and together we drank excellent beer and discussed the numerous observable patterns in the development of the human body that make evolutionary sense. It was amazing, and the end of it all, it didn't make a difference as to whether or not God designed it to develop that way. For both of us, that was the "why," so to speak, whereas evolution of some kind over a longer period than six literal days was a mechanism. I mean, I don't know, God operates outside of time ("a days is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day," and all that), so I'm not sure it even matters in the grand scheme of things. Regardless, I get so frustrated that I can't discuss half of what I learn in school in a proper way with some of my friends, who frequently ask me questions related to the human body.

"Matt, why is our sense of smell linked with memory? I always heard that, and I know that when I smell apple pie, I think of my grandma."
"Because the olfactory sense is closely linked to the limbic system, which is largely responsible for memory (and many other things)."
"Oh. I wonder why that is."
"Well, the current understanding goes that the olfactory sense is one of the more primal, if you will, and first senses to develop. Likewise, the limbic system is a pretty old part of the brain. Since we kind of learn through the limbic system, it'd be important, like 'hey I smell a predator, oh geez I need to leave'."
"Old? Like, we have a limbic lobe first when we're young...?"
"No, I mean like in terms of our species history, and even before that."
"You mean like evolution?"
"Um..."
"YOU believe in evolution?"
"Never mind, forget I answered the scientific question you asked."
"You know, God could just have designed our smell to be linked to memory. It doesn't make a difference."
"I didn't say that He didn't. And you're right, it probably doesn't make a difference."
"You said it was evolutionary thing!"
"It doesn't have to be one or the other."
"BUT IF THAT CHAPTER OF GENESIS ISN'T 100% LITERAL THAN THE WHOLE BIBLE IS INVALIDATED BECAUSE AW;OHGI;HGA;KGHJ;ALK53YH;KL4TJH;4OTHJ;AOTIHJ"

...at which point I slowly back away. Anyway, this is about 100 miles over the border into "rant" territory, and can be considered my formal, ah, "Coming Out" in support of evolution. I can only say that I'm so, so happy with myself and my faith now. I don't have to ignore evidence, I don't have to lie to myself about what adds up and what doesn't, and I can actively study and work in the scientific realm with many like-minded individuals. I don't know about you guys, but I never had the stereotypical atheist professor stand up in biology class and denounce Christianity and all it stands for. Evolution vs. Creation was mentioned maybe twice in the four years of undergrad, and evolution is brought up in a developmental sense (that is, an explanation of why certain patterns appear in our bodies) in my graduate studies of the human body. There's no debate, there's no controversy, there's no willing blindedness or ignorance. It's satisfying, it's rich, and it does justice to our reasoning and intellect without alienating the religious among us. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that more professors at my graduate university are Christian than in my undergraduate institution.

I don't care who disagrees here, but I think the world is even more amazing to me than it was when I believed in a 6-day creation. To me, it's like God took a painstaking process of millions of years, colliding neutron stars here and there, gathering denser and denser elements, as if preparing a perfect recipe for life. We were made from the dust of the ground, as Genesis said, and that dust came from the remnants of cycle after cycle of detonating stars. We are the final product of a meticulous and orchestrated movement of the entire universe, a work of love billions of years in the making and placed into an unfathomably beautiful world. The very rocks cry out in worship as they tell of the wondrous process of how we came into being.

That is a creation story I can fall in love with.
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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby Bruce_Campbell » Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:35 pm

*applauds*
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Re: The Pope supports evolution and the big bang theory

Postby ArcticFox » Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:33 am

Well, yeah. That's because that guy is an ignoramus, not because evolution is false.
::shrug:: I didn't say that proved Evolution is false. I just said that to illustrate that agreeing with it doesn't necessarily mean that person is knowledgeable.
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