Snobs and Congregations: A Rant

[ArcticFox]

Yes, I do feel like this belongs in Spiritual Matters. Please bear with me.

I was speaking with one of my sons over the weekend and he announced to me that he doesn't like organized religion. The ramifications of this are obvious given that we're Mormons.

I asked him what it was that led him to this conclusion. He told me about the church they briefly went to in PA after my kids and my ex moved there, following our marital break. Apparently the local LDS congregation in that town were unbelievably snobby in their attitude toward these newcomers. It's what pushed my ex away from the Church (as far as I know, she doesn't identify as a Mormon anymore) and caused massive damage to the faith of all of the kids we had together.

My oldest has since recovered from the experience and is once again active in Church, but it remains to be seen how things will shake out with the other two.

I blame the congregation in that particular area. Now, in the example I'm providing, it's a Mormon congregation that's at issue but this is a problem I've seen in ALL denominations of Christianity. I've seen it in Catholic and Protestant groups many times. No Church is immune to this problem, whether it's an organized religion or an independent local congregation. Mormons have no special immunity to this phenomenon, nor do Catholics, Baptists, Anglicans, etc.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all churches are like this. I'm not even saying the majority are. What I am saying is that there are enough of them out there to be a problem that really needs addressing. How many more people will turn away from Christianity because the Christians they know personally are so self righteous and judgmental that it feels like this is how all Christians are?

I don't know why my son decided to dislike all organized religion because of a single bad experience, especially when the Mormon congregation we went to here in MD wasn't that way, but this is an ongoing discussion and hopefully he'll share more of his thoughts with me later on.

I'm ranting about this because my son isn't the only one to react in this way, and I've experienced it too in my own life. Somewhere out there is a women whom I once acknowledged as my sister who was in a congregation so extremely arrogant and vain that they made a point to do things like corner nuns to berate them for being Catholic. This person liked to lecture our mother about how she was hellbound for being Catholic and lectured me for being Mormon.

If THAT represents what Christianity is, I couldn't blame anybody for wanting to escape it.

Fortunately, that isn't true Christianity AT ALL. Jesus Christ was never about shouting LOOK HOW HOLY I AM! LOOK AT HOW WELL I DRESS AND HOW PERFECT MY LIFE IS AND HOW PERFECT MY KIDS ARE AND HOW PERFECT MY CAR IS AND IF YOU WEREN'T SUCH A WORLDLY MORDLING YOU'D HAVE ALL THIS GRANDEUR TOO!

But that leaves us with a problem: How do we improve this situation? How do we point this out to people who need to hear it without coming off as self righteous ourselves?

I'm sure there are scripture verses on this. Anybody know of one off the top of your head?

[ccgr]

Matt 7:4 comes to mind

How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

It's easy to judge people, I admit I do it. The people of Walmart pics are funny and scary at the same time. The problem with me is that I silently judge. There are things I just plain don't understand (a single Christian mother struggling financially gets knocked up a third time, different father of course, a married couple living with others continues to have kids...up to five now) and I'll keep my mouth shut about it though. There are other people in my church that are doing godly things that I simply don't do since I'm not wired "that way" (getting together with other Christian families for dinner and singing worship songs....I just talk to people *shrug*)

I just don't "get" these things but I'm not hurtful about it since I am not in their shoes. I say nothing to avoid hurting feeling and I usually don't give my opinion unless asked to do so.

Before we call out others we must fist examine our own lives.

Luke 17:3 says

So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sisterfn sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.

We are called to call out sin to our fellow Christians and if they repent we are to forgive them. If they do not, then elders must be involved and lastly cast away.

I don't consider myself snobby but I am shy and usually don't speak unless spoken to. My church is pretty welcoming though. We've had some rough patches with my kid escaping their nursery twice... but no complaints otherwise.

[ArchAngel]

I posted more than a couple thoughts on this subject in the Outgrouping thread.

Didn't want to derail it too much, and I had some curiosities on what exactly organized religion really is.
I hear a lot about how people don't like organized religion, but I don't really understand the concept of unorganized religion. Further clarification: I know a lot of people who are definitely not into a more dogmatic religion and stay on the grounds of "I believe in God and in doing good, but not a fan of religion." And as an Atheist, I do find that as a less harmful take on religion, but... at it's core, I don't get it. Why even be religious at all? Why do you believe in God? What constitutes God for you? As a Christian, I viewed it as soft and mushy religion. Believe what makes you feel good and tra-la-la you're way through life. Not as bad as "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual." That's like "you just don't care anymore, you're just making things up as you go along."
Now, I see it as a rejection of some of the dangers of religion, but never really fully following the questions through to their logical conclusion. So, a soft and mushy atheism.

Anyhow, if anybody could help me with their perspective on that, I'm all ears. I'm more than aware that my picture is incomplete.

And I'm not saying your son is soft and mushy, and I imagine, it'd be more than just that single experience for him, but that probably is a just a strong and leading example. One experience can be ignored, but not if you keep seeing the likes of it where you turn.

[ArcticFox]

Yeah that's prettymuch why I want to talk with him more about it. When he said that, it was only a few minutes before he had to get back on the road to return to college, so we couldn't really discuss it in detail.

To answer your question, I see organized religion as basically being a large religious organization with a definite "command structure" and specific doctrine, infrastructure and a single tax exempt form

I may be a little biased on this, since I've been a Catholic and a Mormon, so I've always adhered to one or the other, but I'll try to be as neutral as I can here.

The idea of such a unified religious body is that it's consistent with the notion that spiritual truth is objective, not subjective. It acknowledges that there is one, single authoritative source for morality and that source supersedes us as a human species. Whether it's the Catholic Pope, the Bishop of Canterbury or the Mormon Prophet, the idea is the same, that a single individual (or small group) are given authority to guide the church body and interpret God's will. It's more nuanced than that, of course, but that's the general idea.

For example, in Catholicism, the Priesthood is regarded as the sole authority for all doctrinal interpretation and understanding. They are (ideally) all educated in the same way, with the same teachings and the same "playbook" as it were. Mormons are a little different in that while we rely on Church teachings for doctrinal understanding, we believe that we are all entitled to personal revelation and guidance from the Holy Spirit for ourselves and those over whom we have stewardship. That means As an individual, I'm entitled to revelation for myself. As a father and head of household, I'm also entitled to revelation as it pertains to my family. The bishop of our congregation (ward) is entitled to revelation as it pertains to the congregation itself. Then so on up to the Prophet. (It's like scoped variables for all the software developers out there.)

A lot of people insist that once you have a single, unifying work of scripture like the Bible or the Koran, that should be enough to supply the objective truth. The problem there is that, as we've seen, there's a zillion different ways to interpret what's read, and who's to say which version is right? That's why we need an objective, living source to settle such matters. A work of scripture alone isn't enough.

[ArchAngel]

Interesting. It seems that Protestantism falls closer to Mormonism on that, where the Pastor isn't a sole authority and his teachings are more doctrinal understanding. Not as structured, though, as the LDS church, especially if you are non-denominational.

So, if you don't attend a church, but adhere to the teachings in a scripture strictly, would that make you religious, but not in organized religion? I guess I was under the impression that the belief structure in holy writings would be enough to constitute an organized religion.

[brandon1984]

ArcticFox, sorry, sounds like a frustrating situation, especially since there are so many factors that are pretty well out of control.

I definitely agree with you that scripture has many many interpretations. That does make things harder. I've heard of Catholics call their interpretational authority as "refereeing". I prefer a more libertarian approach like protestants. Scripture is interpreted with a sort of community conscience and community intellect, not just reserved for professionals. In this way, conflicts of interest can be minimized even thought they are not eradicated.

As far as your son being frustrated by hypocrisy and it damaging his faith, I totally understand him. It's our responsibility to not cause someone to stumble. I hope the conversation continues in a positive direction between you and him.

[Deepfreeze32]

I'm wondering if he said this for the same reason my brother now professes atheism: Doubts were racking up, and attitude just pushed them over the edge.

Though in my brother's case, it was (And sadly still is) my parents who were the snobby ones...

Guess who I don't like associating with anymore? :/


Maybe I'm just reading this wrong. I dunno. Just thought I'd through it out there.

[ArchAngel]

I'm sorry to hear that happened to your family. These sort of things can be pretty hard for many people and can often bring out some very ugly sides.

[yoish2000]

Excellent conversation. Though I understand that the starting force for the conversation is heartfelt and I'm sure not great fun to encounter. I agree that there there is a source of true objective truth and morality. Though I disagree that it should be a pope, prophet, or even one's own understanding. That seams to me to be denying that God is the eternal judge of all of mankind. And He is the one that has given us his word to be the guide in our lives. Obviously I am talking about the Bible.

I agree that some parts of the bible are hard to understand and take some training to interpret and seek to understand. However a great amount of it is not difficult to understand, and can be easily understood by the average person who simply reads it within it's context. Don't ask yourself "what does this mean to me" but "what is the author saying". And the difficult areas can then be better understood from what is more easily understood.

That simply said I hope that I have not come across as a snob. For I agree that snobbery is a huge issue in churches of all different strips. When it comes to Christianity it seams that we have forgotten that we are all sinners. We seam to want to look down upon all others as the rabble. And present ourselves (very foolishly) as perfect. Which really is Pharisaical. We are presenting ourselves as all white on the outside when on the inside it is nothing but death and rottenness (read Jesus' words to the Pharisees). Have we not become whitewashed tombs.

No let us remember that we are sinners who could not save ourselves. We were destined for the pit of Hell as an eternal punishment for what we have done. We deserve that. All of us. I know I do. But God sent his one and only son to take that punishment upon Himself. He was tortured and died a horrible death (the death I deserved) So that I would not have to. If only I turn from my sin and put my trust in Him. And he didn't stay dead. No! He was raised to life. Conquering death.

In this is a correction to how we can see ourselves. In our error we can view ourselves as so wonderful, and perfect. Which is of course pride. Or we can view ourselves as the worst as invaluable, foolish, or a waste of space. But neither are right. We are sinners, destitute and broken. So you can't see yourself with pride. But you are loved of God. In fact he gave his one and only son for your salvation. So you can't see yourself as invaluable, or worthless on any level.

The correction for snoby congregations is a preaching of this clarity in the gospel. It is a correction in our desire to view ourselves to highly or too lowly but to view ourselves as God would view ourselves. And that (if truly understood) would hopefully bring about true love for others. Not the kind of love that looks down on others, for we remember that we are also sinners who were saved by only grace. Nor the kind of care that never says anything about sin, but that brings out a desire to confront with true love for the other person. A desire for the other person to avoid the pitfalls of his or her actions.

I hope that this makes sense. And realizing that I have probably written enough at this point I will end my post.

[ArcticFox]

Great post, thank you.

"For God so loved [your name here] that He sent His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life."