Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

[ccgr]

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While I believe that Christ's blood can redeem all, they first have to believe and acknowledge. It's not by works we are saved, but through grace.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Works are still good but you have to have both.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[Bruce_Campbell]

Somebody posted this on an ex-Christian forum, and my first thought was "What's the point of being a Christian then?"

My sister's catholic, maybe it's time I came out as an atheist to my family.

[ArchAngel]

Yeah, nice try, Pope Francis.
If there is a god and if he's the christian god, the only way I get in to heaven is some loop hole where I say "whoops, my bad. I guess I was wrong" at the pearly gate and god would be like "aite, that's cool. 'slong as you admit it, you know. Jesus, he cool?" "Yeah, dawg (this is where throws God the Father a look since Dog is backwards for God in English, the one true holy language), he cool. He totes accepts as Lord and Savior."

But, I find this scenario highly unlikely. Latin is the true holy language, Dog is not backwards for God in Latin. It just wouldn't work.


Now, to actually be fair to the Pope, he does preach a good message: do good, and everyone should and can. Just because we're not catholic or christian doesn't mean we can do good. He's really striking down at the elitist notion that only a christian can do good. And, according to my readings, it is in line with your scripture as well. I do want to emphasize this, however, and I feel this is a huge stride for the Catholic church. He's breaking apart a very old and a very dangerous and discriminatory idea.

Now, he did make a side note that we'd meet each other in the after life. If you step out of the standard christian belief, this might as well be biblically supported. After all, it was said that it is his "will that none should perish but have eternal life." This might not be completely contrary to your bible.

And yes, going back to my facetious anecdote, there was a bit of seriousness in it. After I die, if I find myself at heaven's door, you bet I'd admit I'm wrong. It'd be pretty clear at that point. If there was any notion about redemption after death, which is hinted at in 1 Peter, who knows. Maybe I won't burn in hell like a dirty heathen.

Anyhow, Bruce, if you do come out to your family, good luck. I'll be here to talk or rant to if you feel the need.

[brandon1984]

I didn't read the article, but if the pope is saying what people are claiming (even on reddit), then I wonder how he justifies his position in light of all the biblical teachings about hell. Saying that Christ died once for all is true, but that doesn't mean that people cannot reject grace. I'm not talking about someone who's never heard of Christ, but someone who's had the gospel sufficiently presented to him or her. If they reject it and live a fantastically moral life, then they are still lost. Their god is morality and deny the true God what is due.

[ArchAngel]

It's worth reading the whole article. It's really just a small facet of what he was really saying. Almost an aside.

[brandon1984]

Read it. . . hmmmm I can't tell if he's preaching salvation by works or that Christians should accept, support and even work with others that do good. The latter is hardly disputable, but salvation by works? I thought we squared this away in the 16th century with Martin Luther. (Or the "heretic" that preached against indulgences a century before Luther and was burned alive).

I hope the Vatican clarifies on this.

[Nashulee]

I am not sure what the hoopla is all about. Nothing new being said here.

[ccgr]

I thought the new pope was pretty decent until he started twisting scripture to gain popularity. :\

[Nashulee]

This is what Catholicism is all about.... grace by works.....hence the reformation... Grace by Faith alone.

Their is nothing , NOTHING we can do to merit Gods grace. No priest can say a prayer for you nor absolve you of your sins. No number of mass nor number of confessions can help you. There is nothing YOU can do. You can't pay a fee to the church and get friends out of hell, nor can you pay a fee so you can get out of hell. Al of these are MAN based doctrines, work based doctrines that heap coal on the shoulders of men. Do, Do, Do, Do, Work Work Work.

When it is SOOOOOOOOoooooooooo mch easier than that. Beleive in Jesus, Trust ion him, believe that He was God in the Flesh, Trust that He lived, that He died and that He rose. Understand that that is the ONLY way to the Father, and you are in. No good works will do that. NONE.

We don't do good works to be a Christian, we do good works because we are Christians. Thats the thing yo, there are so many "good" men out there that do "good" things, and when they here this, they think well hey , I am good enough.... and they aren't, Only Christ was.

[brandon1984]

Well, to be fair to Catholicism, their official doctrine of justification as I understand is not quite just by works. They created the category of synergy meaning grace + works. Sort of a you meet God half way idea.

[Nashulee]

Ok, fair enough, however, still not biblical.

[N1ghtBreak3r]

And yes, going back to my facetious anecdote, there was a bit of seriousness in it. After I die, if I find myself at heaven's door, you bet I'd admit I'm wrong. It'd be pretty clear at that point. If there was any notion about redemption after death, which is hinted at in 1 Peter, who knows. Maybe I won't burn in hell like a dirty heathen.

Just interested and not wanting to revive, debate, etc. can you be a little clearer on this 1 Peter reference? What part in particular are you referring to?

[brandon1984]

ArchAngel is probably referring to:

• “After being made alive, [Jesus] went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits – to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.” (1 Peter 3:19-20a)

And,

• “For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)

Both of which have been interpreted to mean that salvation is possible for the dead. Also, consider that Paul was not opposed to the Corinthians being baptized for the dead, which implies that Paul was not opposed to salvation for them:

• “Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?” (1 Corinthians 15:29)

[ArchAngel]

Those are them.

[Sstavix]

Their is nothing , NOTHING we can do to merit Gods grace. No priest can say a prayer for you nor absolve you of your sins. No number of mass nor number of confessions can help you. There is nothing YOU can do. You can't pay a fee to the church and get friends out of hell, nor can you pay a fee so you can get out of hell. Al of these are MAN based doctrines, work based doctrines that heap coal on the shoulders of men. Do, Do, Do, Do, Work Work Work.

When it is SOOOOOOOOoooooooooo mch easier than that. Beleive in Jesus, Trust ion him, believe that He was God in the Flesh, Trust that He lived, that He died and that He rose. Understand that that is the ONLY way to the Father, and you are in. No good works will do that. NONE.

I've heard this argument before, but it tends to fall flat to me. By this definition, then good works aren't required at all - only faith in Jesus. Thus, you can be one of the most despicable scumbags on the planet and still get to heaven. For example, (and I apologize in advance for picking such an easy target) members of the Westboro Baptist Church do claim to acknowledge Jesus Christ as their lord and savior... but you would be hard-pressed to find anyone outside of that church that will say they're living their lives by Christ's example. Will they get to heaven? Or will they be "spit out" and rejected when that time comes? (See Revelations 3:15-16)

I think admitting and accepting Jesus is the first step, and an important one. But I can't help but believe that there will be more to that as well.

• “For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)

Both of which have been interpreted to mean that salvation is possible for the dead. Also, consider that Paul was not opposed to the Corinthians being baptized for the dead, which implies that Paul was not opposed to salvation for them:

• “Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?” (1 Corinthians 15:29)

*cough*