Conviction Preaching

[Orodrist]

You learn to love the night.

[Sstavix]

My apologies if I'm stepping on toes or misinterpreting things, but one of the key points of Christianity (and a few other faiths, I might point out) is humility. Surrendering one's will and desiring to serve as a servant to a higher power. "Not my will be done, but thine."

Orodrist is too proud to be humble, too willing (or, possibly, too stubborn) to adhere to individualism and freedom to kneel before the throne. To his credit, he is perfectly willing to admit to this and accept the consequences of his decision. I may not agree with his approach here, but I certainly respect and salute him for his strong desire to stick to his convictions. It's certainly a much more enlightened position than most people take as they bumble through life with little thought of what they're doing or where they're going.

And ArchAngel touched on my initial thoughts when reading this thread. Scotch (or anyone else reading this), anyone can tell you all about spiritual things, the nature of God, or what have you. But the thing to remember is that they're people. Just like you and me (when I'm not pretending to be a lizard-guy, that is). And people are prone to make mistakes.

You shouldn't hesitate to consult with a higher authority regarding anything you hear - yes, about things that you actively question, but surely about things that sound pretty good to you as well. Pray often and fervently, and listen to the answers you receive - especially if they're not the answers you want! God will not steer you wrong. But it's up to you to decide if you want to follow His will or not.

[ArchAngel]

Orodrist, for someone who talks about going full id (correct me if it's not accurate for you), that sounds like an 1800's philosopher.
I'd lie if I said I'm not intrigued.

Now, I can understand a rebellion against "divine dictatorship." Why embrace this "beast" and reject your "superego." Why even look at it in Freudian terms? Are you trying to be true to yourself in some terms, unheeded by entities which seek to control you?

Now, while I'm quite familiar with anti-theist atheists, am I to understand you are an anti-theist theist? Someone who believes in a god but is defiant of him?

And lastly, why do you even believe in a God, or the Christian God in specific?

[ScotchRobbins]

Well, that link JOJ650s put in his post certainly opened my eyes to what's going on in Oro's head...

I am nowhere near capable of understanding what's going on Oro's head right now, but I'm guessing all of that Hypnagogic Halucinating business hasn't slowed.

I have nothing to say to Oro, really. He has become the most amazing paradox ever known though - he is certain of his going to Hell, but his faith is still strong enough to believe in Hell. An anti-theist theist.

Upon reflection, this somehow makes me look at ArchAngel as the polar opposite of that, being a pro-theist atheist.

[Orodrist]

Now, I can understand a rebellion against "divine dictatorship." Why embrace this "beast" and reject your "superego." Why even look at it in Freudian terms? Are you trying to be true to yourself in some terms, unheeded by entities which seek to control you?

Putting it in Freudian terms simply makes it easier to explain.

It's a defense mechanism for me, of sorts. I naturally move to eliminate sources of pain, the "higher" parts of human emotion create pain, ergo, I eliminate those.

Now, while I'm quite familiar with anti-theist atheists, am I to understand you are an anti-theist theist? Someone who believes in a god but is defiant of him?

And lastly, why do you even believe in a God, or the Christian God in specific?

I wouldn't know what to term myself. Guess I never gave a darn.

I believe based on instinct and feeling. Irrational yes but I could care less. Already comfortable with the idea of eternal torment, being wrong in that matter leads to a rather trivial and meaningless endgame. I just end up having lived a fulfilled life.

[brandon1984]

Fascinating, I'm so glad you are on the board, Orodrist. You say you believe based on instinct and feeling and that this is irrational (although how can you know this without rationalism). Do you think that all people should think by instinct and feeling? Do you think this way by choice or do you believe that you have no choice?

[Orodrist]

Fascinating, I'm so glad you are on the board, Orodrist. You say you believe based on instinct and feeling and that this is irrational (although how can you know this without rationalism). Do you think that all people should think by instinct and feeling? Do you think this way by choice or do you believe that you have no choice?

Most people would be fools to try to think based on instinct and feeling alone. Quite simply, most people are prey. They're wired to flee conflict.

And of course it' a choice. Everything is.

[ArchAngel]

Would you be able to elaborate on what you mean by higher parts/superego?
Conscience? Rationality?

I know I asked this before, but why do you believe in God/Christianity?
Most people either want to believe it or get fulfillment from belief, but it seems you get neither of these. No reason to have faith.
Is there some evidence that makes you believe?

How did you get comfortable with eternal torment? Seems to me that eternity has a higher utility than our short lives.

[ScotchRobbins]

I think it gives him a form of pride. He mentioned that earlier.

[Orodrist]

Would you be able to elaborate on what you mean by higher parts/superego?
Conscience? Rationality?

And what I'd call more advanced emotions. Awe, envy, shame, greed. Hope, most of the time. I've reduced my social life to that of a pack hunter. There's MY people, and everyone else. Strangely as it may seem this hasn't been too harmful, since loyalty is something I'll always consider innate and I tend towards being blindly so.

I know I asked this before, but why do you believe in God/Christianity?
Most people either want to believe it or get fulfillment from belief, but it seems you get neither of these. No reason to have faith.
Is there some evidence that makes you believe?

Instinct. Nothin more I can say than that. I'd hardly call it faith, no more than I know the sun will rise.

How did you get comfortable with eternal torment? Seems to me that eternity has a higher utility than our short lives.

Some people get off on pain. Others just don't get it.

[ArchAngel]

Interesting. Almost the opposite of my worldview.
So why this rejection of higher ordered human functioning in favor of baser, animalistic emotions?
Why reject that which sets us above all other animals?

How, also, does instinct lead to a theology or religious belief?

[ArcticFox]

So this Paul Washer can stuff it. This is just fear mongering. Don't fall prey to it. Why should this man make you doubt whether you are saved by Jesus or not? That's your faith, and not his. You shouldn't feel afraid for your soul just because this prick want's to throw God's name around like that. You already know.

I haven't heard a word from him, but if he's teaching Christians to be afraid that they aren't saved, he can-- well, you know what he can go and do.
This is disgusting.

^This.

[ArcticFox]

I have nothing to say to Oro, really. He has become the most amazing paradox ever known though - he is certain of his going to Hell, but his faith is still strong enough to believe in Hell. An anti-theist theist.

Which is why I seriously doubt he means what he's saying, or understands it fully.

No offense, Oro.

[Truthseeker]

If I believed in a being with no limit to its power, who is evil enough to force all people to take his existence on faith and then eternally torture everyone who doesn't do so, then I'd be so bloody frightened that there's no way I'd voluntarily subject myself to that entity's wrath. "Some people get off on pain?" Wouldn't this omnipotent being be able to design a torture so terrible that even masochists would regret experiencing it?

[Orodrist]

Interesting. Almost the opposite of my worldview.
So why this rejection of higher ordered human functioning in favor of baser, animalistic emotions?
Why reject that which sets us above all other animals?

Because it gives us the delusion we're anything but animals.

How, also, does instinct lead to a theology or religious belief?

*shrugs* heck if I know.

Which is why I seriously doubt he means what he's saying, or understands it fully.

No offense, Oro.

None taken, you're welcome to doubt what you will.

If I believed in a being with no limit to its power, who is evil enough to force all people to take his existence on faith and then eternally torture everyone who doesn't do so, then I'd be so bloody frightened that there's no way I'd voluntarily subject myself to that entity's wrath. "Some people get off on pain?" Wouldn't this omnipotent being be able to design a torture so terrible that even masochists would regret experiencing it?

Then if you'll excuse my bluntness you don't know enough of the tendency of barbarians' pride to ignore fear.

I think Goethe put it best:

Shroud your heaven, Zeus,
With cloudy vapours,
And do as you will, like the boy
That knocks the heads off thistles,
With oak-trees and mountain-tops;
Now you must leave alone
My Earth for Me,
And my hut, which you did not build,
And my hearth,
The glowing whereof
You envy me.


Heaven may do as it pleases but I made my life for myself and I'd be a fool to live it for anything but myself, punishments, consequences, and fear be da...rned. Such a pun oppurtunity lost, that.