Go ask the lizard-guy something....

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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Chozon1 » Sun May 04, 2014 6:31 am

Maybe there are monsters under your bed. When was the last time you cleaned it out under there? I've seen some dust bunnies that can bite your arm clean off!
I sleep in a hammock, so there's not really anything under my bed. Maybe a few items of clothing.
Ah, but is this the real world? Or merely an illusion? A prison for your mind, as it were....
It's the real world. I'll take your fake money if you think you don't need it though...
Two things came to me while reading this....

1) The concept of "self" is pretty much the only thing we can be certain of. We cannot experience the world from someone else's senses, memories and experiences. Others can certainly try to show things from their perspective, but we still end up filtering their writings (or recordings or what have you) through our own mental filters. So in one respect, reality is extremely self-centered, simply because we have no other "selves" to experience it with.

2) I find it amusing that you are dismissive about existentialism. To be honest, most of philosophy likely consists of pulling stuff out of your backsides. So we can discuss the veracity or usefulness of existentialism until the cows come home. But let's return to the question that started this whole philosophical discussion in the first place - is it real? Existentialism is a part of our reality - we can talk about it, obviously, so therefore it must exist! But is it true? And if not, does that mean that reality can be partially comprised of outright falsehoods?
See, I don't think that's true either. You can be certain of many things. You need air to breath, the sun will come up tomorrow, hitting your hand on a stone will hurt it, ETC. None of these things are only for me, or for you. I think to believe the "concept of self is the only sure thing" is to deny a very large part of reality (you know, philosophy). Reality is also not self centered; to say that is to call God wrong. He tends to point out that reality is centered around Him. And be honest; You can't live around other people without seeing the world as they do. Everything you are started off with your parents as a child. The showed you the world, they told you about the world. At no point did you magically transform into another person. Your experiences only modified those first solid truths you learned, and maybe changed how you thought of them. No one is entirely alone in their existence because only they see the world as they do.

That existentialism exists is without question. That it's true or viable is the question. OK. But can reality be comprised of outright falsehoods? No. Because that statement assumes reality is a personal thing, and not...reality. If I believed existentialism it would mean I was denying reality, it would mean how I saw the world was different, but it wouldn't go beans towards changing reality. Just like firmly believing the world revolves around me will not magically make people bow down before me. :P
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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Sstavix » Mon May 05, 2014 12:15 am

See, I don't think that's true either. You can be certain of many things. You need air to breath, the sun will come up tomorrow, hitting your hand on a stone will hurt it, ETC. None of these things are only for me, or for you. I think to believe the "concept of self is the only sure thing" is to deny a very large part of reality (you know, philosophy). Reality is also not self centered; to say that is to call God wrong. He tends to point out that reality is centered around Him. And be honest; You can't live around other people without seeing the world as they do. Everything you are started off with your parents as a child. The showed you the world, they told you about the world. At no point did you magically transform into another person. Your experiences only modified those first solid truths you learned, and maybe changed how you thought of them. No one is entirely alone in their existence because only they see the world as they do.
I wasn't saying that you control reality by perceiving it - you can only perceive reality through your own senses. You can't live life while living within someone else's skin. Reality isn't self-centered. The way you perceive it is.
That existentialism exists is without question. That it's true or viable is the question. OK. But can reality be comprised of outright falsehoods? No. Because that statement assumes reality is a personal thing, and not...reality. If I believed existentialism it would mean I was denying reality, it would mean how I saw the world was different, but it wouldn't go beans towards changing reality. Just like firmly believing the world revolves around me will not magically make people bow down before me. :P
Then how does that work logically?

a) Existentialism is real, in that it exists.
b) Reality cannot contain falsehoods.
c) Existentialism is false.

Logic would seem to indicate to me that at least one of the above statements is untrue.

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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby ScotchRobbins » Tue May 06, 2014 2:03 am

B is a given, but our definition of "falsehoods" evolves rapidly.

Also, did you ever realize that the only mental portrayal anyone has of you is that green lizard?
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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Sstavix » Tue May 06, 2014 6:02 am

Also, did you ever realize that the only mental portrayal anyone has of you is that green lizard?
My wife begs to differ... you know, the catwoman? ;)

Although with her interest in herbalism and natural medicines, I also get a kick out of calling her "de voodoo lady," too....

In any case, the image I get of you is the Blues Brothers. I missed having you around, by the way. Never realized how happy I would be to see Jim Belushi until you popped up again. :lol:

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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Chozon1 » Tue May 06, 2014 6:50 am

I wasn't saying that you control reality by perceiving it - you can only perceive reality through your own senses. You can't live life while living within someone else's skin. Reality isn't self-centered. The way you perceive it is.
Ish. I wouldn't call that self-centered. You're basically saying that I'm living my life for myself. I'd like to think that's not true, otherwise life is pointless.
Then how does that work logically?

a) Existentialism is real, in that it exists.
b) Reality cannot contain falsehoods.
c) Existentialism is false.

Logic would seem to indicate to me that at least one of the above statements is untrue.
It would. But that's not what I said. You're making the world, reality, something that exists only as we perceive it, and not something that exists outside of us. Existentialism can exist within our minds as a fictional concept (or philosophy, to be unoffensive), and so it exists within reality. But it is not itself, a real concept.

In essence, I cannot change the color of the sun, but I can paint my glasses. Does that make the sun change, or simply change how I see it?
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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Sstavix » Tue May 06, 2014 7:53 pm

I wasn't saying that you control reality by perceiving it - you can only perceive reality through your own senses. You can't live life while living within someone else's skin. Reality isn't self-centered. The way you perceive it is.
Ish. I wouldn't call that self-centered. You're basically saying that I'm living my life for myself. I'd like to think that's not true, otherwise life is pointless.
I'm not saying that you're living your life only for yourself. There's certainly nothing wrong with compassion or empathy. :) But you have no way of experiencing life through someone else's senses. You have no way to transfer your brain into your sister's skull, or morph yourself into a dog for a couple weeks, or meld minds other people to function as a collective unit rather than an individual. Unless, of course, you have some sort of mutant power I'm not aware of.... Everything you experience is a unique experience because you are experiencing it through your own senses - not someone else's senses.
It would. But that's not what I said. You're making the world, reality, something that exists only as we perceive it, and not something that exists outside of us. Existentialism can exist within our minds as a fictional concept (or philosophy, to be unoffensive), and so it exists within reality. But it is not itself, a real concept.

In essence, I cannot change the color of the sun, but I can paint my glasses. Does that make the sun change, or simply change how I see it?
Let's try a different, more real-world example. You may have heard about the book and the movie "Heaven is For Real." Basically, it's the story of a boy who has a life-after-death experience. He recounts his time talking with Jesus and his dead older sister (who his parents never told him about), and even seeing God (but not God's face, because he's so big). I've heard some interviews with the family, and it's really quite interesting!

"Nonsense!" scoffs the skeptic. "There is no God or Heaven. This is merely a fabrication created by the boy's father, who is a pastor, to try to increase the numbers of his church. It's yet another example of religion trying to wheedle money from the gullible masses."

Two different people, and two different perceptions of reality. But which one is the "real" reality? Do we have any way of telling for certain, given the limited tools we have available? And is there a possibility that multiple realities can exist at the same time? Maybe both people are correct. Maybe neither one is. But they are convinced enough, by their own experiences and education, to believe that they perceive the "right" reality.

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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby ScotchRobbins » Tue May 06, 2014 10:47 pm

In any case, the image I get of you is the Blues Brothers. I missed having you around, by the way. Never realized how happy I would be to see Jim Belushi until you popped up again. :lol:
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Awwww, shucks!

Speaking of which, The Blues Brothers or the Mario Brothers?
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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Sstavix » Wed May 07, 2014 5:10 am


Speaking of which, The Blues Brothers or the Mario Brothers?
Mario Bros. I'm a gamer at heart. And although I found the movies amusing, I wasn't a big fan of the music.

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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Chozon1 » Wed May 07, 2014 8:41 am

I'm not saying that you're living your life only for yourself. There's certainly nothing wrong with compassion or empathy. But you have no way of experiencing life through someone else's senses. You have no way to transfer your brain into your sister's skull, or morph yourself into a dog for a couple weeks, or meld minds other people to function as a collective unit rather than an individual. Unless, of course, you have some sort of mutant power I'm not aware of.... Everything you experience is a unique experience because you are experiencing it through your own senses - not someone else's senses.
I understood you; I just wouldn't call that self centered.
Let's try a different, more real-world example. You may have heard about the book and the movie "Heaven is For Real." Basically, it's the story of a boy who has a life-after-death experience. He recounts his time talking with Jesus and his dead older sister (who his parents never told him about), and even seeing God (but not God's face, because he's so big). I've heard some interviews with the family, and it's really quite interesting!

"Nonsense!" scoffs the skeptic. "There is no God or Heaven. This is merely a fabrication created by the boy's father, who is a pastor, to try to increase the numbers of his church. It's yet another example of religion trying to wheedle money from the gullible masses."

Two different people, and two different perceptions of reality. But which one is the "real" reality? Do we have any way of telling for certain, given the limited tools we have available? And is there a possibility that multiple realities can exist at the same time? Maybe both people are correct. Maybe neither one is. But they are convinced enough, by their own experiences and education, to believe that they perceive the "right" reality.
I would say yes, you can prove the existence of a God (evidentially, logically, though there's not a microscope you can put Him under), and no, both perceptions can't be real, because that defies logic, and even the most hardcore atheist and Christian will agree that the universe is logical; logic itself comes from our understanding of reality. Unless they also happen to be philosophers.

But does that change reality? Nope. Just how I see it. Does the fathers belief in God cause Him to exist? No. Does the atheists disbelief cause Him to not exist? No. Because reality is separate from our perceptions, no matter how much we may argue to the contrary.
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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Sstavix » Wed May 07, 2014 1:37 pm

I would say yes, you can prove the existence of a God (evidentially, logically, though there's not a microscope you can put Him under), and no, both perceptions can't be real, because that defies logic, and even the most hardcore atheist and Christian will agree that the universe is logical; logic itself comes from our understanding of reality. Unless they also happen to be philosophers.
(Like I mentioned before, a good portion of philosophy seems to consist of pulling stuff out of their backside. ;) )

You are going off the belief that the universe is logical? That everything subscribes to a specific order and laws? Then where does chaos come in? For example, logic would dictate that rolling a d20 a certain way will always produce a 20 (provided the user isn't using weighted dice or otherwise cheating). Or flipping a coin in a specified manner will always yield heads. I would think that, in a universe ruled strictly by logic and reason, there would be no room for randomness to occur. Yet we run into instances of random chance every day.

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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby ScotchRobbins » Wed May 07, 2014 9:33 pm

Math?
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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby cjv » Thu May 08, 2014 5:35 am

Flowers?
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Chozon1 » Thu May 08, 2014 7:31 am

(Like I mentioned before, a good portion of philosophy seems to consist of pulling stuff out of their backside. ;) )

You are going off the belief that the universe is logical? That everything subscribes to a specific order and laws? Then where does chaos come in? For example, logic would dictate that rolling a d20 a certain way will always produce a 20 (provided the user isn't using weighted dice or otherwise cheating). Or flipping a coin in a specified manner will always yield heads. I would think that, in a universe ruled strictly by logic and reason, there would be no room for randomness to occur. Yet we run into instances of random chance every day.
That's assuming we can understand everything. Just because something appears random and chaotic to our perspectives, doesn't mean it is. Humans don't invent the laws of the universe. :D

I would also say that logic dictates that rolling a dice is random; same with flipping a coin.
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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby Sstavix » Thu May 08, 2014 1:41 pm

Math?
I stink at it. That's why I'm an English major!
Flowers?
Pretty. And quite useful, especially if you like fruit and/or honey. Incidentally, my favorite flower is the rose, because they remind me of my wife. Very beautiful to look at and smell, but grab her too hard, and prepare to get hurt.
That's assuming we can understand everything. Just because something appears random and chaotic to our perspectives, doesn't mean it is. Humans don't invent the laws of the universe. :D

I would also say that logic dictates that rolling a dice is random; same with flipping a coin.
That sounds like one of the Planescape factions known as the Fraternity of Order, nicknamed the "Guvners." They believed that the multiverse operates through order and laws, and that if they could figure out all the rules, they could also figure out how to manipulate it or find the proper loopholes in order to rule the multiverse.

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Re: Go ask the lizard-guy something....

Postby ScotchRobbins » Thu May 08, 2014 8:29 pm

Almost forgot! How's your novel coming along?
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