Super Smash bros.

[bgpablo]

This thread is ridiculously anti-fighter.

In the sense that, you all look at the aspects that hardcore fighter game players would look at as a positive and label them negative, and vice versa.

Speed and difficulty? These, on top of precision, are perhaps the largest reasons for the greatness of the genre. I look at Smash Bros, as awesome as they are, as taking something intense that actually takes an insane amount of skill, and making it a family-friendly platformer.

In other words, Smash Bros. is the equivalent to modern four-chord music; absolutely no skill involved, but it appeals to the masses who don't want to learn the difference.

I am curious, how much time have you actually spent playing Brawl?
As I stated in my prev. post, I am not at all anti-fighter - I've given time to almost all fighters. For a guy that is now busy raising kids and have become too busy to devote hours to any one game, it's nice to have a fighter like Brawl that doesn't require me to learn complicated special moves or button combinations. It does, however, maintain the fighter fundamentals of timing and stringing moves together. I have been at parties that had SF tourneys and Brawl tourneys, and they were equally competitive.
Speaking of "insane amount of skill", the famous Diago (?) who was considered the world's best SF player, was beat in a recent tournament in one of the preliminaries by a complete unknown. The guy that beat him didn't go on to win the whole thing, either. I just think all fighters have their advantages and disadvantages, but I'm just trying to prove that Brawl is indeed a fighter.

[Chozon1]

This thread is ridiculously anti-fighter.

In the sense that, you all look at the aspects that hardcore fighter game players would look at as a positive and label them negative, and vice versa.

Speed and difficulty? These, on top of precision, are perhaps the largest reasons for the greatness of the genre. I look at Smash Bros, as awesome as they are, as taking something intense that actually takes an insane amount of skill, and making it a family-friendly platformer.

In other words, Smash Bros. is the equivalent to modern four-chord music; absolutely no skill involved, but it appeals to the masses who don't want to learn the difference.

Dewd. XD Do you have any idea how Elitist that sounds? It's in the same group as the 'pro' players whining about eating a grenade and calling 'Noob tuber'. Fighters don't require an insane amount of skill; just patience and timing. You can button-mash pwn a master with those two things. Evidenced by bgpablo, but also experience in general. My friend memorized combos and spent hours practicing Tekken III, but I could still pwn him by fart spamming and/or sword dive spamming (depending on which character I used...I loved Gon). Same with the SNES versions of Street Fighter. I got pwned more times than I care to admit, but a lucky strike with a button mash is still good enough to drop a master.

The thing here is cockiness; hating on Smash because it requires 'no skill' just shows that, as well as the belief that more 'srs face' fighting games require a masters level of finesse. They do, sure; you can play them that way. But it's no better in the end than a lucky punch to the face. It is a game we're talking about here, not real life. No offense Jester, because you know I love you...but really. This is silly. Both sides of it; there's no cause to hate on more technical fighters because of their technicality.

Still, I've played against button mashers in Brawl and Melee and taken them down (consistently) with patience and timing, not getting all cocky at them; and I've been dropped by masters who I thought I could own.

My point here is flatulation against elitism (since, by the way, four chord songs have nothing wrong with them and have been, in fact, some of the deepest heartfelt music I've heard. And I listen to obscure stuff too, you know. Now pop music that uses the same chords, beat, and effects as everyone else? That you may have a case against) and griping against people who think a simple game is a lame game. Mayhaps I'm reading that wrong (I really have to potty, you see, and that makes me grumpy), but it still smells in this thread.

Now I'ma have to get Street Fighter and hand your rumpus to you on a platinum spork. >_>

[ChickenSoup]

I LIEK BRAWL BUT 2 SIMPLE


NEEDZ MOAR C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREKKERS

[Nate DaZombie]

I LIEK BRAWL BUT 2 SIMPLE


NEEDZ MOAR C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREKKERS

KILLER INSTINCT FTW!!! ALL HAIL 90's RARE!

[jester747]

First off, I'm not entirely sure why I needed four different people to explain my impudence, and one of those to idly chirp without offering any actual information.


And besides comparing Smash Bros. to pop culture, I never attacked it, nor did I say it was too simple, nor did I hate on anyone for liking it. I was saying it lacked in the primary areas that make a fighting game great. I think that they're legitimately awesome games, which I stated, I just don't think that the fighting aspect of them is very strong. I think that if you look at them as a platformer, the system is awesome, but if you look at them as a fighter, it lack considerably. That was my point.

And fighters don't take an insane amount of skill? Huh.

Apparently none of you have played Marvel vs. Capcom 2.

As to saying that there was no skill involved, that was more of a mistake than anything. I meant to say, that at an entry level, there's little to no skill involved. I'm not judging anyone who prefers a simpler system to a more difficult one, I'm just saying that fighters like SF or MvC2 require a level of build up before you get consistently good at what you're doing, and Smash Bros. doesn't have that build up. Again, I'm not saying it makes it a worse game, I'm just saying it makes it lack in the areas that define a good fighting game. Because honestly, the genre existed before Smash Bros., as well as the criteria.

(since, by the way, four chord songs have nothing wrong with them and have been, in fact, some of the deepest heartfelt music I've heard. And I listen to obscure stuff too, you know. Now pop music that uses the same chords, beat, and effects as everyone else? That you may have a case against)

I never said that four chord songs suck, just that the amount of skill required to make them is abominably small.

[Chozon1]

First off, I'm not entirely sure why I needed four different people to explain my impudence, and one of those to idly chirp without offering any actual information.

Because it was impudence, knave. >_> Mostly, I just have a gut gurkle reaction to elitism. I came on strong because of that, and I'm sorry for it.

And besides comparing Smash Bros. to pop culture, I never attacked it, nor did I say it was too simple, nor did I hate on anyone for liking it. I was saying it lacked in the primary areas that make a fighting game great. I think that they're legitimately awesome games, which I stated, I just don't think that the fighting aspect of them is very strong. I think that if you look at them as a platformer, the system is awesome, but if you look at them as a fighter, it lack considerably. That was my point.

Which is true. True to it's name, the Smash series has always been more of a brawler to me than a fighter. Especially SSBB, considering it's story mode is pretty much a hack-and-slash. Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat (or, yeah, Killer Instinct) is what I consider a true fighter. I told ye, I was violently chirping at the elitism, not the correctness or incorrectness of your post.

And fighters don't take an insane amount of skill? Huh. Apparently none of you have played Marvel vs. Capcom 2.

As to saying that there was no skill involved, that was more of a mistake than anything. I meant to say, that at an entry level, there's little to no skill involved. I'm not judging anyone who prefers a simpler system to a more difficult one, I'm just saying that fighters like SF or MvC2 require a level of build up before you get consistently good at what you're doing, and Smash Bros. doesn't have that build up. Again, I'm not saying it makes it a worse game, I'm just saying it makes it lack in the areas that define a good fighting game. Because honestly, the genre existed before Smash Bros., as well as the criteria.

True; I've not. But I'd place money you could win matches without an insane amount of skill, just patience and timing. If not involved in the game, just waiting until your opponent is serving your own rump on a platter in the game and kicking him in the pants in real life. But who defines a good fighter? The guy who wears finger gloves and has thumb calluses?

And anyway, Smash does have that build up. If not in the main game on normal settings, certainly vs another human. I consistently ate fist until I stopped mashing and started thrashing. Comparable to a standard fighter? Nah; not even a smidgen. Not even a breadcrumb, really. Only a few characters have combos and until SSBB there weren't even slightly immodestly attired women types.

I never said that four chord songs suck, just that the amount of skill required to make them is abominably small.

And I still disagree. Unless you mean taking the same four chords as any other pop song and the same beat but changing the timing to fit your own lyrics.

Basically, it's up to you. If you want to slap down Am C Em D all the time in every song with the same tempo, yeah, that's taking the easy way; but slapping down Am C Em D and throwing in arpeggiation, off-beat strumming and subtle background muting using different formations? Hardly buying a pie.

[jester747]

Well yeah, I apologize for the elitism, I didn't mean to sound so hipster. >_<

True; I've not. But I'd place money you could win matches without an insane amount of skill, just patience and timing. If not involved in the game, just waiting until your opponent is serving your own rump on a platter in the game and kicking him in the pants in real life. But who defines a good fighter? The guy who wears finger gloves and has thumb calluses?

While the point about patience and timing is partially true, it's very unlikely for that system of game. When I played Kenny those hundreds of times whilst I was still a beginner, I kid you not, until after the first month, I had beaten him twice. Neither of those times were luck, either, it was down to fractions of a health on both sides after vigorous amounts of effort from both parties.

True, there's definitely an aspect of spamming in MvC2 (Cable, Iceman, Sentinel, Doom,) but it's also true that once you reach a certain level of play, virtually every kind of spamming dissipates, because you'll learn how to get around it. Other than spamming DP, I'd say it's fairly similar with SF.

And anyway, Smash does have that build up. If not in the main game on normal settings, certainly vs another human. I consistently ate fist until I stopped mashing and started thrashing. Comparable to a standard fighter? Nah; not even a smidgen.

This is exactly my point. XD

It doesn't have that same build up as a standard fighter.

And I still disagree. Unless you mean taking the same four chords as any other pop song and the same beat but changing the timing to fit your own lyrics.

Well, this is primarily what I meant either way. XD

But still, even songs like 'Don't Stop Believin' by Journey have an exceptional amount of simplicity to them. I love that song, but I won't deny it's immeasurably easy to perform. (sans vocals, of course.)

And by four chord songs, I was referring to songs with just that; four chords. That is, not songs with anything going on than those four chords. (Except for maybe throwing in some disgustingly shallow bass riffs.) So basically ninety percent of modern rock and country, and all of modern pop.

[ccgr]

doesn't Don't Stop Believin' have more complicated piano in the beginning?? (listening to it now) I'm not very musical so I could just be talking smack. It has some pretty cool guitar riffs too. Most of the song sounds simple but it does have some tricky parts it seems.

[jester747]

Not so much complicated as fancy.

[bgpablo]

ok, so the general consensus is the Smash Bros. games are great. This is obvious, though.

I still hold to the fact that they are excellent examples of fighting games (especially Melee & Brawl). But not everyone here agrees, so we need to find a mutually agreeable definition of a "fighting game."

1. At least two parties are pitted against each other in a physical fight, or match.
2. The parties select and control characters, or fighters, that use a variety of moves to attack the opposing party.
3. The moves may vary from simple punches & kicks to special moves/ techniques that may vary in strength, speed, and range.
4. The victory of each fight may be determined by a variety of ways:
a. one party's fighter loses all of his/her energy, or health.
b. the time runs out on a timed match, issuing a victory or draw (depending on specific game rules).
c. one party's character causes the opponent to fall out of the ring, or arena.
5. The fighters may or may not posess weapons to fight.
6. Items or objects may be present that may hinder or assist a party's character.
7. An engaging storyline giving a purpose to the fighting is appreciated, but not required.

I can't think of any other rules, but feel free to suggest another. As it stands, these rules cover ever fighter from Street Fighter to Soul Calibur to Marvel vs. Capcom to Smash Bros..

Oh, and I don't think music has to be complicated to be beautiful, either.
-BG

[jester747]

I'm not saying that Smash Bros. isn't a fighting game, I'm saying that it lags in the fighting aspects.

[JOJ650s]

Ok, I am just going to say things in a simple way.

Smash Bros is a fighting game,
it has stuff other fighter games lack,
and it lacks what other fighter games have.

[bgpablo]

- wow, JOJ, that was very well put.

- and Jester, my defense of SSB as a fighter was intended more for darth who said it was more of a platformer

The only real point that I ever tried to make was that the beauty of the Super Smash Bros. game is their ability to offer an excellent fighting game experience without the need to memorize complicated movesets. And they did all this at the same time as pulling all of their varied franchised characters into one game.

>> this is an old question, but I'd love to hear some thoughts, what Nintendo branded character needs to be in the next SSB game that hasn't been included yet?
I've already suggested Chibi-robo, but maybe .... a Goron?

[JOJ650s]

I can't think of any other Nintendo characters at the moment...

[Nate DaZombie]

>> this is an old question, but I'd love to hear some thoughts, what Nintendo branded character needs to be in the next SSB game that hasn't been included yet?
I've already suggested Chibi-robo, but maybe .... a Goron?

I'd say a koopa (a special one) or maybe a Mii.